02: Building Community and the Law (w/ Doug Jackson)

In this episode we discuss the law, building a community, friendships, marketing, and running a business with this week’s guest, Doug Jackson.

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Episode Transcript

Doug, all right, here we are. Thank you so much, Doug, for coming on. Been looking forward to this. You are obviously on my short list of people to have on the podcast. It was a no brainer. I’m a big fan of what you’re doing. Love being a partner, a client of yours, a friend, so thanks for coming on. Well,

thanks for having me, Josh. I will say I’m a little jealous of Eric. He beat me and got the first spot, but I’ll figure out a way to take him down later.

You’ll take him down with the beautiful content of this episode, comparatively. That’s

right, we’ll just outdo him.

Yeah, there we go. Cool, man, I want to dive in. You know, we’re going to free flow through this. But for me, I have a lot of questions about, you know, why? What? Why does someone get into law? And you know, so So for me, I wanted to start with what brought you to being a lawyer, what made you so interested in law?

That’s a great question, one I wish you didn’t ask, but that’s okay. We’ll go through it. So most people have this nice story, like I wanted to help people, or I wanted to really make a difference in society. Mine actually was not that nice. I found that later on, so I was studying economics in college, and I took a business law course. Really kind of liked that course. I was always very competitive growing up, but then I stopped growing at this height and only got this fast and only this large. So sports just weren’t, weren’t my destiny. So I was trying to find something where I could compete, and law seemed like a natural fit. I thought there was decent money in it, so I ended up going to law school. So my mission statement was, or my my law school admission statement, or whatever, I had to get more creative because I didn’t have the feel good stuff that most of the other law students had. Now, as it turns out, my career has taken me to a point where I really focus my practice on helping people and building community. I find real value in that. But it took me, it took me actually experiencing that to get there. Nice.

What was that mission statement or that admission statement?

You know, I don’t remember. It was a long time ago. It didn’t, clearly, it didn’t mean that much to me. I think I was trying law as, I don’t know, I didn’t as just almost experimentation versus a real passion. So that, again, not a great story on how I got into it, but that’s the honest truth. I didn’t know really what else to do. I was kind of going, should I get a PhD in economics and be a teacher, or should I be a lawyer? Which were very different career paths, but I got into it, and then, then I found the passion for it later, when I realized what I could actually do with it, how I could actually help people, and how it actually feels to help people. Before that, I was just, I was in college. I was young kid. I was not. I didn’t care much about people. Unfortunately,

yeah, well, it’s clear that you care about people now, so I can definitely attest to that. And honestly, that’s a nice story, because it’s not necessarily so cliche, because, you know, it’s, it’s an authentic way to where you are now,

I try to be honest, good, bad or ugly. But, yeah, I was like, you’re really, we’re gonna start this interview with that question. I wanted something to really present well, but I guess honesty, integrity is what we’ll start with. There

we go. I was like, What’s your favorite color? It’s always weird. How do I get started on this? Tell me about when you were five, and let’s start from there and move forward.

Well, you know, better than me, I’ve never done one. I You’ve at least done one. Eric beat me to it. So

it’s gonna depend on where we start per person. We’re gonna interview some bands and stuff like that. I have a feeling we’re gonna start in very different places with everybody. So that’s the beauty of it. You’re gonna have some diversity, I imagine. Oh yeah, yeah. And that would be the beauty of this show. So And speaking of diversity, you approach business, I think differently than lawyers that I’ve seen, that I’ve utilized, and now you’re my go to, of course, but I don’t know if you could talk through some of the unique aspects. Your approach to business? I’d like to kind of dive into that. Well,

my approach to business is really to use everything other than law as a model. Someone once said to me, I won’t say who, because I don’t want other lawyers to be mad at him that lawyers are terrible business people, second maybe to physicians. Now I’m not that’s not my opinion for the record, but it may not be a wrong opinion either. So yeah, we look at I look at lawyers, I look at what everyone told me. I kind of always, I think even in law school, knew I wanted to open up my own shop eventually, eventually, and a lot of lawyers would say, specialize in one thing. And maybe it was my background in economics and business, studying that in college, but I I always wanted a more diverse practice. I mean, you think about a business portfolio, you want our investment portfolio, you want diversity. You don’t want to specialize necessarily in one thing. Also, I really enjoy learning and doing any one thing kind of bores me. So in that sense, that’s a bit of a different approach than a lot of lawyers anyway, because I want to diversify what I’m doing. I want to try new things. I don’t want to get stuck. I want to always be learning something new, trying to make new arguments, learning new areas of law. So that’s, that’s, I think, one approach that’s different. The other thing, like I said, is I don’t listen or really look at a lot of law models. I do, to some extent, but one of the things I really fashion my business after, weirdly enough, is professional sports teams. So I think it’s one of the best models for how to do, how to run a business, especially a business like law. Because when you look at a professional sports team, you have the team, the players, and that’s kind of the starting thing. The team needs, the players. Without the players, there’s no there’s no stadium, there’s no fans, there’s no ticket sales, there’s nothing so you got to get the team. If you have a good team, you can probably win games, but that doesn’t necessarily equate to income. I mean, you look at a team like the bears, and don’t get me wrong, the bears have won a couple Super Bowls. I think one right? I should know I’m the worst person to ask. I have a lot of family in Chicago, if they hear this, they’re going to be very upset at me, but so, I mean, they’ve been notoriously a bad team for a lot of years, but they always continuously sell out the stadium. They are able to bring in revenue. So you’ve got the team side, but then you’ve got the business side. So you’ve got the coaches, the players, they’re focused on what they’re doing. So in terms of law, we’ve got, like a legal team, right? We’ve got the lawyers, the paralegals, the people who are focused on winning the cases. But then we also need a business side, and that business side is what’s going to kind of generate that fan base. Now, it’s a little bit different what we’re doing, because we’re not trying to sell merchandise. But what do those teams do? They create a fan base like the bears, the the we’re in here, here in Florida. So we’ll talk about the Buccaneers. People are going and they’re buying merchandise. They’re buying tickets. Now, if the Buccaneers win, do they get any money? No, no, they don’t. If the Buccaneers lose, do they lose any money? No, they don’t. But they have this fan base, this loyalty. Actually, you mentioned today some 1000 fan theory that I heard about previously that I want to talk to you more about at some point. But you have to create a good business creates this fan base, right? And in order to do that, they need to do things outside of what they do on the field, so outside of what we do in the courtroom. Because the courtroom in particular, yeah, it’s a public venue. People can go to a court proceeding, but they’re during the daytime. They’re not they’re not advertised unless it’s a big trial, unlike a sports event. So we have to actually go and out do some outreach to the public, people who are not experiencing some kind of court case or something like that. And when you look at sports teams, they kind of do this too. They they they’re star players. They’ll make sure they volunteer at different organizations or do charity events. And so we take a community centric approach to develop basically our fan base. And this started again. I’m going to keep going back to everyone’s going to hear this and think I’m totally selfish. But it started as, how are we going to market better, and how are we going to get known and how are we going to create that fan base? So we had to go outside of our regular clientele to really bring new people in. And as we did that, I started realizing we can really help develop the community, because the community is all of us. So we became more activity driven, community driven. And then, weirdly enough, and Josh, you can get a good plug right here. I. Um, when we hired you to redo our website, you got us thinking about, what, what? How does that mirror what you guys are becoming? You asked us about mission statements, vision statements, but what I realized is we needed an events page right on the homepage, which I think is different than any other law firm. We’re, we’re an activity events driven firm. It’s not the passive marketing. We’re out there actually doing things, trying to get people, bring people together, and that’s going to benefit everybody. So yeah, we do things I’m rambling now I feel like but we do things a lot differently than a lot of other businesses. I imagine you might want to kind of hone in and ask a more specific question, but there’s, I mean, that’s just kind of an overview of some of the ways we do things differently. Yeah,

big fan of that. And we’ve collaborated on community events now, and you’ve had extremely successful first events that have been launched to network the community. But that’s the thing is, you know, that breaks you away from the noise, you know, you go down the street and you see 10 different billboards with five different lawyers on them, like in an auto accident, or some buff dude in an astronaut costume. It’s like, what is this? But what are they doing, truly for their community, and it really does set you apart. Also. Everybody that you touch in that community knows, like, oh, Doug’s a genuine dude, and he’s now my go to so it’s this beautiful match of your marketing, your company, you’re doing good because you genuinely want to and you’re connecting, you can’t go wrong. Yeah,

I mean, I really believe, and it’s taken me some experimentation to figure this out, but good business is all about relationships. I mean, when you think about it, it’s we wouldn’t have businesses if it weren’t for relationships, other people have a need, and if it weren’t for those other people, we wouldn’t have a business. If it weren’t for those relationships that we are building, we wouldn’t be doing business. So I think it’s very important that we do build these relationships. And back to kind of your point earlier. I do kind of criticize the legal profession. We like to talk about in the Bar Association. We’d like to talk about how we’re leaders in the community, but I’ll be quite honest, outside of Bar Association events, I don’t see lawyers being that active. I mean, there are some in the chamber, but when you look at the general makeup of the chamber, Chamber of Commerce, very active in the Chamber of Commerce. I’m talking to you like I know, but I should give a little background to the listeners. There’s not that many attorneys that are truly active and engaged with the Chamber of Commerce, and I mean outside of the courtroom or outside of the Bar Association, I just don’t really see them. And that’s a big criticism I have, because we should be lawyers in the community, leaders in the community, we are lawyers, and we also should be lawyers in the community, but we should be leaders in the community, and I just don’t see that as I don’t see us present now, I will say our new St Petersburg bar president, Ryan Griffin, who owns, he owns the restaurant group that owns Mandarin Hyde and trophy fish, and I think LCAP now, he’s the new president, and he’s taking more of a business focus. He’s more of an entrepreneur. He’s been, actually a former chair of the board of the Chamber of Commerce, and so I’m really excited to see what he’s going to do. Melissa Byers, who’s the executive director of the St Pete Barr, she’s, she’s really a big advocate of, I think, more community engagement as well. So I’m excited to see what we’re going to do this year. Hopefully I’m not a standalone lawyer much longer. Hopefully there’s other law firms that are engaging in the community and really helping build those relationships amongst everybody.

Yeah, it sounds like there’s maybe a new wave coming, and you’re potentially setting the precedent for what should be done or what needs to be done, but it sounds like maybe there’s some adjustments to be had on the on the lawyer front, because maybe the old model is shifting, and people don’t want to go to those big billboard names. That’s cheesy. I’m not going to get personalized service. Do they care? Do they care about this community? And maybe the answer is no.

I think it depends on what the lawyers do. I mean, you look at the billboards, and a lot of them are personal injury lawyers, and they’re they don’t care about who their client is. They care that their client got in a car accident, and their client wasn’t at fault, and their client, the person who hit them, has insurance, so it’s different. I mean, what we do? We do we have a general practice, and we do a little bit of personal injury, but our focus is really on business law, estate planning, but our focus is really. Mostly on business owners or business decision makers. And these are people who, again, they need the relationships. They need to be active in the community. So it’s not one of the reasons I like the business law side is because I can actually be active again, every other type of law I almost view as passive. I’m waiting for something personal injury or waiting for a car accident to happen. Your criminal law, you’re waiting for your client to get arrested, or your next client to get arrested. Divorce, you’re waiting for a divorce to happen. Business, I can actually be proactive. I can be learning about like your business, Josh, I can be promoting your business. Because, guess what, as your business grows and you have more transactions, you’re gonna need more legal help, and you’re going to have more money to pay a lawyer. So it’s actually one of the few areas of law where I see us in the driver’s seat. But I will say, I think that’s different. I don’t think you’re going to see personal injury attorneys being that engaged in the community, because the way they get business is, well, when someone gets in a car accident, they go, What do I do? Oh, I just happened to see a commercial versus more business type law, estate planning law, almost what I would call preventative care types of law. And don’t get me wrong, we have businesses who get sued, and then they say, I wish I would have done what you said. But the more what I would consider preventative care type of law. You need to be engaged with the community. You need to be educating. And this another, I’m just ragging on lawyers here, apparently, Another criticism I have is that I don’t think we do a good job of educating. We almost like to it’s almost like we like to keep the law a secret, but the law is what governs all of us. It’s what builds our community, it’s what it’s what structures it what we’re kind of founded on. We’ve all agreed that these things are good to build the relationships, build the community, but yet we don’t help. At least I don’t see us doing a great job of educating the regular community on what the law is so they’re trying to navigate with these rules, and we don’t even tell them what they are, unless, unless they already break them, and then they pay us a lot of money, which is not a bad thing.

I always have been fascinated that we all have to obey the law, and the law is so complex and but yet needs to be understood by the general public, yet isn’t, but we all have to follow it. It’s this weird dichotomy, you know, and even the the verbiage you read a contract, you’re like, What did I just read?

Yeah, so I think, I think it was Jerry Seinfeld, and I think it was a joke, but maybe not so much. It’s a little serious, really, I think he said, it’s all like we’re playing a game, and everyone’s moving the pieces around, they’re rolling the dice, and everything’s going fine until someone gets in a dispute, and then then you got to break out the rules, and the lawyers are the people who actually read the rules. And it’s there’s some truth to that. I mean, if you think about even a board game, and, well, actually, monopoly, monopolies played wrong all the time. Apparently, apparently you’re supposed to auction off a space if someone doesn’t want to buy it, so it’s supposed to be a much faster moving game. So yeah, good. I hope, I hope our listeners learn something. Everyone’s gonna go play Monopoly now. But yeah, so it is funny, no one really reads the rules, and that’s you got to have people who are nerdy enough to actually do it, and then we call them lawyers. And lawyers are a weird breed, though, because we’re competitive nerds versus the scientists who are more just kind of nerdy nerds. So but it is, you’re absolutely right, and I think it’s, it’s unfair. I will say, when I started law school, I said I’m never going to write a contract in that legalese. The more I learned about it, the more I realized the word choice is actually very precise, and if you don’t use that precision and word choice, it will lead to ambiguity, and it actually avoids disputes. And I’ve said this to you, Josh, that a good contract actually saves friendships. It avoids disputes. You know what’s going to happen in the future. You know, if there’s a breakup, what’s going to happen. So this podcast is a weird thing. I’m just rambling on now

you’re the guest, so it’s not you know, I’m only going to talk so much, but you also are like a wealth of knowledge. And honestly, how many of those lawyers that were speaking about are going on different podcasts and making themselves vulnerable and and talking through these things? Not not a lot you had mentioned. I’m hoping

they’re also not listening to podcasts either, since I’m just ragging on them, but sorry, I didn’t mean to interrupt. Oh, no,

we’re maybe we can change that, because, yeah, same with your family. I’ll send it to them up in Chicago.

Maybe, maybe they do need to hear, not my family, but

you had mentioned scientists in the scientific community, and it just. Me thinking, because what I love about the scientific community is there is healthy competition, you could look at it, but also this really healthy collaboration. For instance, I have a discovery and I have a hypothesis and then I do experiments to prove that hypothesis essentially wrong, because the more that you try to prove it wrong, then you realize I am right. And and so here I have this paper, I publish it, and I ask all these other scientists, hey, can you guys all prove me wrong so that we can become more, right? And I’m wondering, I know that in law, once a case is settled, it’s like, that is the standard. And you know, when does it change where it’s like, okay, Roe versus Wade. How could that be overruled and not be the the model for a particular case that you’re arguing and say, Hey, Roe versus Wade. It says this. So that’s the precedent. How does that change? Or is there, is there a community of lawyers out there who are trying to be collaborative and prove themselves wrong? Well,

so, so Roe versus Wade was the standard until it was overturned, yeah, what the hell? But it’s, I mean, the answer to your question is yes, there are, there are groups of lawyers who are trying to change the law. I wouldn’t say that’s most lawyers, because most lawyers So let’s kind of talk about the different court systems. I guess you there’s, there’s hierarchies, there’s levels, right? You’ve got your trial courts, your appellate courts, your supreme courts, and you’ve got these at a state level. You’ve got these at federal level. We talked about the United States Supreme Court, and most of going back to kind of a board game and just moving around, most of life happens without court intervention. I mean, even, even a lot of criminal stuff, you usually have to do it wrong a lot before you get caught. I mean, most of the time, people are breaking the law, they’re breaking the rules, and it’s not a big deal. So nobody, nobody catches them, or they look the other way. But you get to you start to move up, right? And the bigger the dispute, because that’s kind of what a court system is, especially in civil law, the lawsuits, it’s dispute resolution, and so you got to say, I don’t who’s right, and you have to have someone decide, someone play referee. Did was, did they get the runner out, or was he safe? You need an umpire for that. So you look at the trial court level. And so you look at the state court, most of these decisions are not really what they call published. There’s not really trial court decisions that are published you talk about settlements. So settlements are before the court enters a judgment, before the judge finds something. And so that’s that’s a private contract, so you don’t even necessarily know what the settlement is. So settlements oftentimes have a lot of confidentiality clauses. You can’t even discuss it. So most of the time, you’re moving around, not really knowing some of these gray areas. And sometimes, strategically, we don’t want to appeal the gray area, because we know that it gives us a little bit of wiggle room. And at the trial level, even the judges might rule differently. And this is kind of a cool concept, actually, because when we talked about the community, who knows more about the community than people who live in the community? So I still kind of criticize lawyers, and even even shouldn’t criticize. I’m not going to criticize judges on here, but I this is one reason I want to see lawyers in involved in the community, outside of just a Bar Association, a courtroom setting, actually interacting with people who are non lawyers, just the same way that the our politicians should be interacting with the regular people. Not that, not that lawyers are some higher level of being than you regular people. Josh, but so, but So you started like a county, even at the trial courts. In the state court, you started small claims, which is kind of, it’s really the little stuff. And those you’re never you, those judges, they they rule on things all the time. You never I mean, you might try to see what they ruled on different cases, but it doesn’t really hold much weight. They can. I mean, it does for that case, but not for the next case unnecessarily. Now you start to get to know the judges and the preferences, then you’ve got the county courts, and they’re, they’re kind of a higher level of judge, and again, they’ve got fewer cases, but same, same kind of thing, they’re deciding things different ways, and each different court, because a court’s made up of different judges. So like or circuit, let’s say So here we’ve got the Sixth Circuit. The 13th circuit might be doing things a little bit differently than the Sixth Circuit, and so then it moves up to. Next tier, the circuit courts, and which is, again, each, each of these is under the circuit in Florida. And then you get the you move up to the appellate court. And the appellate is a district and this is actually Florida does things opposite. So it’s it’s reversed in federal so the district court is the trial court and the circuit court is the appellate court. And the reason they used to do this. I was reading about, I can’t remember. It’s called Team of Rivals, I think is about Lincoln. Apparently, the circuit courts were called circuits because they’d actually, the lawyers would actually trap the lawyers and judges would travel together around the circuit. So they’d, they’d travel through the districts around the circuit to hear the different cases, because the circuit ones were higher, so they, they basically would see the whole they’d see overseas, several districts, so they travel, um, but so, yes, when, when you get a dispute, and it’s these judges think it’s big enough, they’ll, they’ll not only issue a decision, but they’ll what’s called publish A decision, making it a president precedential decision, but sometimes you have splits, and so you’ve got different like at the federal level, this is why things go up to a Supreme Court, because you’ve got enough courts that are making different decisions. And this is it’s kind of cool, because for each community, it might be a little different what that community needs, but when it becomes a big enough issue, the Supreme Court can hear it. And you might have heard they use this funny word. It’s called, they either grant or deny certiori, grant cert, deny cert. So the Supreme Court actually gets to choose which cases it wants to hear, and a lot of times the Supreme Court will deny. A lot of people petition the Supreme Court to hear their case, and the Supreme Court says, basically, we don’t think that’s that’s important enough, only the cases. Do they think it’s important enough? Will they hear and then that will set a binding precedent on all of the courts. So it’s, it’s a it’s like a pyramid. It’s a hierarchy. You’ve got different departments, if you will. They’re called different divisions or different circuits, and they might be doing things different ways based on a precedent. And so the higher court can always overturn a lower court. The higher court can technically overturn itself. They try not to do that because we want some consistency in law, but if so. So the higher court doesn’t want to be flip flopping. They want to try to set clear rules, but occasionally they will overturn themselves, like Brown versus the Board, they overturned Plessy v Ferguson and said, You know what? The separate but equal thing? It’s not it’s not an okay thing. We were wrong. We need to change our prior ruling. And Roe v Wade. And I, for some reason, can’t remember the case name off the top of my head, that was pretty recently overturned as well, because the Supreme Court decided that, apparently they thought they did it wrong.

That’s wild, too, that, you know, it gets all the way up there, and in today’s age, something like Roe v Wade can be overturned. It’s like, where’s your evidence for that? It’s you know, for for like, for instance, in the scientific community, have fun proving evolution wrong. You know you you could, but you need more evidence than what’s been presented up until now. Feels like it’s not necessarily that case for, for, law necessarily, it’s like you just have enough evidence in order to, you know, overturn it.

So at the at the trial level, I’d say it’s more about evidence, it’s more about data, it’s more about evidence. Now, don’t get me wrong, every judge has they’re humans, right? And that’s, on the one hand, that’s what makes it great. On the other hand, that’s what is also terrifying, because you’re getting judged by a human. And what better to understand humans, but a human you don’t want, you don’t want a system. You don’t want you don’t want a robot. You don’t want something cold and completely uncaring. But humans also have partiality, and you can’t get away from that. I mean, we try to the judges, and I really do believe they try to do the best they can without putting their own biases, their own partiality. But no matter what, you’re not going to get away from it. That’s the whole idea. Is persuasion. Now up at the appellate level, those are more policy kind of arguments. Up at the Supreme Court, oh, that’s definitely policy. It’s almost philosophy. It’s philosophical almost up at that stage. And then, obviously, the Supreme Court justices are appointed by political parties, and so even though the Supreme Court is not supposed to have a political affiliation. Again, these are humans, and they have their their biases and their their partiality, and I don’t think that any human can get away from that completely. Yeah,

I don’t know if you’ve already answered this question, maybe in how you’ve spoken about some of this stuff, but I’m, I’m kind of curious both sides of the coin. What is your least favorite? Favorite part of the law, what is like most absurd, or, you know, the thing that you disagree with the most about what what’s happened. And then I’ll let you end on a positive not the podcast, but this particular spot on what your favorite part of the law is.

Um, well, I suppose my least favorite part is when I get a decision on a case that I may not like or or even if we’re talking about kind of Supreme Court cases, they they issue a decision that I don’t like, either for humanity and the public or because it might affect some of my cases later on. So I’d say that’s probably my least favorite part. Now I’m going to go ahead and just move into your kind of next question. My favorite part is that it can also change, right? I mean, that’s my least favorite part, is when we get a bad decision, or what I think is a bad decision, other people might think it’s a good decision, but that can change down the road, because we are basing this on really kind of the culture, and we’re basing it on, on what we believe now. I mean, I think we can, I hope we can all fundamentally say slavery was an absolutely wrong institution. I hope we can fundamentally say that separate but equal was fundamentally wrong. But at the time, the culture even so being wrong. Believed that it was right. And the the judges at the time said, Okay, Plessy v Ferguson, separate but equal, which, weirdly enough, was better than than it was, because it was just separate and unequal. So it was an improvement, but still fundamentally wrong. And then Brown v Board came along, and the judges said, You know what? This is not our culture. It should never have been our culture, even though it was, and we can change that. So the the Yeah, again, the negative aspect for me is when I get stuck with a decision I don’t like. But the positive is that that’s not necessarily a permanent thing either.

Gotcha. So today, what are maybe, like, one or two of the biggest issues that are currently being hashed out, like, obviously Roe versus Wade was overturned. Is it obviously there’s pushback on that? How many times can it go back and forth? Maybe it’s endless, or what’s the next step in something like that? Yeah,

so that’s a good question, and I can’t remember if we talked about it here, but there are, there are certain lawyers that are trying to change law. I mean, they basically set up cases. They use, they use a certain person who does an action so that they can make a case and and those kind of big cases, they’re looking for a certain plaintiff. A plaintiff is the person who brings the lawsuit to try to change the law. And so they might actually kind of recruit a certain plaintiff to do a certain action so they can bring this whole lawsuit and challenge it. So there is, weirdly enough, there’s some kind of gamesmanship in changing the law at that level, because you’re looking for the perfect case, because if you stumble into something, you might not have the perfect case, and if it’s not the perfect case, it’s going to be hard to say, we should change the law. And the Supreme Court, like I said, they get to grant or deny certiori, so they get to choose which cases they want to hear. So even if you have a really good case and you try to bring it, you have to go through first the trial court level, then the appellate court level, and then go up to the Supreme Court, typically. And so if you get stopped at any of those places, you’re not going to make a change. So actually, and I have not looked this up recently, but I believe this is still the case. We had internment camps in World War Two. We actually put Japanese people in the United States in internment camps, which, weirdly enough, not a lot of people know about. And that was that was a legal thing to do, and subsequently it was challenged, and it got up to the appellate level, and the appellate level said, Absolutely not. That was wrong. We’re overturning this. So the irony of this is that the government, of course, they weren’t going to really appeal that because, I mean, I think even the government, when this came about, knew that, yeah, that that is a correct decision, but it never got appealed to the Supreme Court. So theoretically, it still might be legal in some some areas. I mean, I don’t think anyone’s going to do that, but so it has to get all the way up to the Supreme Court. Otherwise, it might just be legal in some area, but not the entire area. And technically, the Supreme Court is the law of the land. So theoretically, the Supreme Court, well, that appellate court never had authority to overrule itself, but the Supreme Court their law would still be binding precedent. So you have to have everything exactly right to change the law. And if you look at how this is done, people. Challenge the law when there’s certain justices on the bench. So when the the a lot of these abortion cases, the more recent ones, came about is when we started having more judges appointed by a Republican Party president than appointed by a Democratic Party president. So at this point, you’re probably not going to see a lot make it up that high. And the reason being is because you Why would you challenge it? And this Court’s not going to hear it. They said We already made that decision. So you’re probably going to have to have a pretty dramatic change in the court makeup before that’s really challenged. And I think, I do think if you start seeing, if we see a big swing in terms of judges pointed appointed by more democratic presidents or justices, I do, I think you’re going to start seeing challenges again. Because the hope is, it makes it up to the Supreme Court, and then the hope is that that change in the dynamic of the bench changes the law. So is there a limit to how many times you can see it? No, technically not. But you’re, I think you’re not going to see things for probably about a decade at a time. I mean, major shifts you might see if there’s if there’s major shifts in culture, but culture kind of changes slowly too. Now, if we get into a war or something, things change faster, certain like industrial revolutions, technical revolutions, things change faster. But in terms of even those kind of revolutions, humanity doesn’t necessarily change faster. It’s more technical issues. So the big ones that actually we hear about and we talk about, yeah, I don’t think you’re going to see a real change in that for probably at least a decade, likely more than that. I mean, Roe v Wade, that was 70s, so I mean, that was, that’s 50 years.

That’s crazy. It’s like a timing thing. Who’s up there, and do you have the right case example to bring for them to accept it, and all that. So many factors in play, which makes sense, like so complicated. What rules how we act to one another. And in the world, it’s, it’s extremely important, and it’s also, I just keep coming back to, it’s so important. It’s interesting that we don’t all have to be like mini lawyers, you know, so that we know what’s going on, and we know what rule, what game are we playing? You know, what are the rules to this game? And, you know, I don’t know. And then you get into taxes, because there’s people who know how to avoid some because they’ve read the rules way more thoroughly, or they have people on their team that have and how to avoid those. Maybe

the scariest part is all the people that think they know the rules that don’t. Yeah, they’re

that too. I was gonna, I mean, I feel like I have to ask this question, and I know that you can’t give names or particular details, but I’ve got to ask like, what is the wildest, most crazy case that you’ve been a part of? Well,

when I started my career, I started representing disabled people, and I’ll just, we’ll just talk about maybe a hypothetical type scenario. So hypothetically, you might have a client who actually has tattoos all over his body, because apparently the tattoos he believes ward off evil spirits. And then it turns out, apparently, that most people are are possessed, and you can see it in their eyes. Apparently, I wasn’t possessed. I guess attorneys don’t have souls, so I can’t, can’t be possessed. But then, then it also turns out that these evil spirits are actually just advanced alien technology. Oh, I also represented Michael the Archangel one time one of these disability hearings. Apparently, archangels can become disabled. Who knew? So those, those were actually some of the most fun cases, because the stories are just kind of fun. But I mean, yeah, you never know what you’re gonna get. You never know what people are gonna say. And unfortunately, sometimes you can’t tell what they say. Sometimes they say some, some pretty crazy things. And our profession’s about keeping secrets. So

dang Yeah, the what? What’s in there? I know what. We can’t, uh, probe deeper, but that’s wild. So archangels and such. Who would thunk it?

I did have a case one time where it was a disability case. They really do have the best stories. It’s not what we’re doing very much anymore. But you just, you can’t make some of this stuff up. And she started having a seizure during the hearing. Well. Won that one. The judge was like, Okay, I’m gonna, I’m gonna grant this. So that was, that was, it worked out well, but that was kind of an interesting, interesting scenario. That’s,

that’s kind of fascinating. Yeah, you’re in a realm where you don’t know who’s gonna contact you, what’s been done. And I have an aunt who was a federal prosecutor, and I never get to hear anything, because it’s like a black box, but I think she prosecuted the underwear bomber, you know, and, but it’s like, I don’t know anything, you know, maybe, maybe I’ll have her on here and try to get some more information, but she can

tell you what’s in the public record. He could, he could look that up, right?

Yeah, that’s a good point. It’s funny because her name on fate, she’s retired, and her name on Facebook’s different. She doesn’t have a profile, so she’s still, like, really careful, I guess, you know? And I don’t, I don’t blame her, but I’m, I’m fascinated in this realm, yet can only get so much information on it because it’s sort of black boxed. And I guess, you know, that’s good because it protects privacy and stuff like that. It’s the law, you know. We, we have agreements, and I don’t know how deep it goes, but we can’t talk about certain things. But man, so I wanted to ask kind of about your trials of being a lawyer and a business owner. I think it’s great to learn from each other’s mistakes. You know, someone listening to this might be, want to be a lawyer, just a business owner, or just a person in the world, but you know what was, what would you say is like one of your biggest setbacks, and how did you overcome that?

Good question, it depends on the day. Depends on the week. I mean, it’s Yeah, being being a lawyer, right? You already have this. You’ve got to, especially in any kind of adversarial proceeding, any any regular court case you’ve got, you’re trying to make your case. And sometimes I feel like your own client is trying to unmake your case. Some of the clients listen to advice better than others do. Let’s just say, so you’ve, you’ve, sometimes you’ve told your client to do one thing, and then they say, Yeah, you know how you told me to do this? Well, it turns out I did exactly the opposite. So then, then you try to fix what they’ve done. Meanwhile, you’ve got the other lawyer on the other side trying to break your case and make make their own case. So you already have a lot of setbacks, and you’ve got judges who sometimes make rulings that you just can’t predict. I mean, maybe, I suppose the judges would say they were very predictable, but sometimes I can’t predict what they’re going to do, at least. And I think other attorneys would agree with me. Other practicing attorneys would probably agree with that. So you’ve got all these setbacks and a case. I mean, some of our VA disability cases can go on for 10 years. Litigation cases can go on for they’re supposed to get the regular litigation case done in 18 months, but most of these go on for years as well. So you’ve got a long case, you’ve got a lot of hearings, and sometimes as you’re going through your something goes wrong, and your strategy, and you have to try to regroup and and fix that. So it is, it is kind of like a sports game, right? You sometimes you go into halftime and things aren’t going well, and you have to try to regroup and fix that. You have to have a short term memory. But then on top of that, owning, owning a law firm, being a business owner, you run into similar problems where things don’t go to plan. Cash flow is not coming in as you expect it. You try to plan for these contingencies, and sometimes it just doesn’t happen no matter how you plan. So it’s, I wouldn’t say there’s necessarily a biggest setback. It’s just you’re going to be set back. You will and the and this is, I think, probably good advice for all of life. You’re going to fall off the horse, and you have to figure out what you did wrong, how to adjust. And sometimes you didn’t do anything wrong, sometimes you did everything right, and you just get unlucky, and you have to figure that out, is it because of something you did, or is it because bad luck struck? And if bad luck struck, okay, well, just get right back on and keep doing it. If it’s because of something you did, you got to change. You got to adapt. You have to come up with a new strategy, because you don’t get a reset. You just have to keep moving forward. And so if your path is blocked, figure out how to go around it. And that’s that’s, I mean, that’s in any case, that’s in owning a business, and I’d argue it’s basically all of life.

The growth coach is the world’s leader in business, coaching, sales, coaching. And entrepreneurial education with the combination of the strategic business mindset and life leadership paradigm, I am driven to help you move forward, as well as help you and your partner gain the edge you need to succeed in your business journey together, call or text me today for a free consultation at 727390414, or email me at E Nutting, at the growth coach.com the growth coach of St Petersburg, better business, better results, better life. To learn more about me, be sure to go back and listen to episode one of the name and creative show. Now let’s get back to episode two of the name and creative show with my friends Josh naman and Doug Jackson.

I love that. Yeah, I was just about to say that what you’re saying, and a lot of times when we talk about business, it can absolutely translate to life pretty quickly. Hey, do you have a process built for this? Do you have a calendar? Are you organized? You know, are you connecting with the community? Are you trying to do good moving forward, but I love that I had a buddy who always told me, fail fast, you know, because you are gonna fail your I used to read to my students this comic that’s still out there, and it’s called becoming friends with failure. And you know, it’s talking about, as an artist, how many 1000s of pieces do you not see before the thing that’s hung up on your wall? You know? How many failures? How many wrong strokes? How many wrong notes do you hit before? Ah, there’s Bohemian Rhapsody. Took them a month to write or to record that. By then, one month for one song. It’s pretty epic song, but it’s it’s wild, but a lot of it translates. So I love that sentiment well.

So earlier, I was talking about Lincoln. He had a failed career as a politician. He lost almost every thing he ran for and then ended up winning the presidency. You look at because we forget about this. We forget about the failures. Michael Jordan was cut from his like, middle school or high school basketball team. Oprah Winfrey had a tough career before she made it big. Harrison Ford was the carpenter, and he was asked to stand in for lines on Star Wars. And that was his big break. He was like, 3030 something, 35 or something. You look at all of these people that we think are great successes, and we forget about all the failures, I mean, and this is, I think, something that’s important to talk about in life too, is we’re so many of us are afraid of failure. And I was there at one point where I was so afraid of failing that I wouldn’t even take a chance. And, I mean, you guarantee failure if you don’t take the chance. Since we’ve been talking about sports so much, Wayne Gretzky, for every What is it for every shot you don’t take, you don’t make something like that? I

think that’s a Michael Scott quote. Now, well, I just,

I’ll still give credit to Gretzky, yeah. But I mean, it’s true. I started, I for a long time, I was afraid to take any chances, and then I started looking at him, Okay, what do I have to lose, besides a little time and most of the risks? Right? It’s okay. It’s gonna hurt my ego. I’m gonna what everyone’s gonna make fun of me. Nobody cares. Babe. Ruth had some. I mean, everyone knows. Babe Ruth, he had some of the most strikeouts. Brett Farr, for a while, had the record for interception or touchdowns, but also record for most interceptions, but I don’t think anyone would say he’s one of the worst quarterbacks of all time. So people forget failures, and we like to see successes. Now that doesn’t say that doesn’t mean don’t weigh the magnitude, because sometimes I have clients who I wish were a little bit more afraid of failure instead of they just go at it. I mean, if you rob a bank, yeah, that’s, that’s giant magnitude. If the failure doesn’t, if it comes into play, if you’re not successful, you don’t get away with it. Yeah, that’s game over. So, I mean, but realistically, when we look at things, if I ask someone to go to coffee with me, what’s the worst that’s gonna happen? They say no, and I get a little embarrassed, but what if they say yes and they can teach me something at that coffee so I do think there’s really something to what you’re saying here.

Yeah, I think, I think failure is a necessity for success. You can’t be successful without without failure, at least some. You know also, I think it’s important to learn from other people’s failures. You don’t necessarily have to fail. If you do some homework and you say, Oh, they failed there. Well maybe I can just go ahead and avoid that, but you’re gonna fail somewhere else, especially if you’re innovating or trying new stuff, and like you said, you’re paralyzing yourself. If you’re not even going for it, well, then you’re just stagnant and you can’t expect to move forward. It’s

the same reason I think that community engagement is so important. If we’re not talking, we’re not learning, we’re not spreading our knowledge and humanity is this interesting? Interest? Interesting thing, where we are one of the most collaborative species. I mean, yeah, we have tribes and stuff, but we have built giant societies. There’s no animal on the planet that’s built a society like ours. I mean, they have little packs or prides or whatever, but humans have we have states, we have countries. We have, we have globalization at this point. And going back to what you were talking about, science, we build from one another. I mean, imagine if we had to reinvent the wheel every time. That wouldn’t make any sense. And so we need to talk, we need to collaborate, we need to communicate. And it’s one thing I, like I said, I have learned through doing what we’re doing, the events, trying to build community, I’ve learned the value that it actually has for everybody. Yeah,

love it, man. We’re diving deep. I want to do a new segment called Rapid Fire shook you Okay, so I do something different every time, and that’s just going to be the thing. But So essentially, I want to just ask some real quick questions, and then we’ll conclude by I want to talk about some of your future goals, a piece of advice that you could give listeners, very tangible, and plug yourself some more. But first, rapid fire. So what would you say is your biggest source of inspiration depends

on the day. I can find I’m going to be really bad at this, because I’m a lawyer. I don’t do anything. Rapid fire. I think through things. But you can find inspiration anything. I mean there that’s that’s the beauty of it. Don’t get stuck. Look outside of what’s normal. The times I’ve gotten stuck. You asked me earlier about the setbacks in business. Weirdly enough, I tend to find better answers when I take myself out of it, because you do feel too stuck if I go on a run, I’ve found creative solutions. It’s always the things that I’m not thinking are going to be the solutions where I get the most inspiration, so where I get the most inspiration out anything outside of what I’m trying to do, don’t, don’t box yourself in

love it. It’s funny. You say that, I think that’s going to be like, one of the most common answers, because when we talked to Eric, it was very similar. But like, even for your website, let’s say for me, I it’s a it’s a Law website. Okay, where do we draw inspiration from? Well, one of the last places I’m going to go to draw inspiration from is other law firms websites. I’m going to look at them and see where they’re at and know the landscape. But I’m not going to draw my inspiration necessarily from there. That’s, I guess, inspiration in one way. But really, I’m going to go outside of the realm and see what are events, especially yours, being event centric. What are festivals? How are they portraying their events, or sports teams? How are they how are they showing what’s coming up? And getting outside of your industry not only helps you escape the cliches esthetically and the normal layouts and this and that, but it also pushes you to these new ideas where you can innovate within this realm, because you’re taking a new spin on it. And that’s for me, that’s where it’s at. You know, you’re doing a music poster. Well, then I’m gonna look at sports posters and see what’s cool about their layout or their use of color. So getting out of your head. I love for me, it runs as well. Getting away from my screen in the paper, yes, I

totally sabotaged your rapid fire there.

Yeah, I know. I mean, that’s just the name, but yeah, some of these others might be one word. Who knows? Do you have a favorite book?

I I like the Simon Sinek. Leaders eat last. I like that one. A

lot leaders eat last. I like that. Yeah, there’s a there’s a book that’s that I’ve started called servant leadership, and it sounds like maybe they’re tugging at the same threads, and probably one that we need to read together. Yeah.

So I just finally finished top dog, the science of winning and losing. That’s that’s a really interesting book. It kind of goes into some of the collaboration you’re talking about, but also competition and how those two things play together. It’s apparently there’s a competitive gene that some people have, that other people don’t, where they actually learn from more competitive experiences, and other people don’t learn as well in a competitive environment. And so both people can become very successful. You just have to teach them differently. I actually read this book as almost a management type of book, which was not really the way I think it was supposed to be read, but it was really interesting. One of the things because people think that if you put top performers with bottom performers, they’re going to really help the bottom performers. It actually turns out that in I think it was the Air Force Academy, they tried to do this, and it didn’t. Work at all. What worked is when you put people who are similar in skill level together because they end up competing against each other, and it gets everyone better. So yeah, absolutely fascinating book. Another one that I need to read, and maybe we can read it together and talk about on the next podcast, is this book called Traction. Apparently, this is a really good business book. Sweet.

So a few there. Yeah, sorry, I

told you, I’m terrible at this. No,

it’s good. You’re really good at it. What about music? Do you have a favorite musical artist or a favorite album that’s a go to that just sticks with you?

You know, it’s kind of boring. I like classic rock. I’m a big classic rock fan. Yeah, I don’t, I don’t keep up with Maggie makes fun of me because I’m terrible with pop culture. It’s, it’s too hard to keep up with all those changes. I’m trying to keep up with the laws. I only have so much capacity. So yeah, stick with classic rock. And what I know

the beauty of good music, or like classic rock, is it doesn’t, it’s always solid. Doesn’t matter what year it is. Good stuff. Good stuff, same with art in general, you know,

I know. And by the time enough time passes, you can cherry pick and just pick out the highlights so I don’t even have to weed through the bad stuff anymore.

How do you define success?

It’s different for everyone. I guess. I mean, my definition changes. For me, it’s, I mean, I’m extremely competitive. I mean, I I’m big on collaboration, but I also, I think that you need to be competitive at times too. That doesn’t mean stabbing people in the back, but for me, it’s success is achieving achieving small goals. I don’t know that. I would say that success is achieving any one big goal, and really, any one big goal is made up of a bunch of small goals. So I find success when I’m achieving small goals. I find that I’m feeling unsuccessful when I’m struggling to achieve my small goals, and sometimes that’s when I need a reset. I need to maybe change those goals, kind of what we’re talking about, change what am I doing wrong, and reset. So for me, success is more about momentum than a destination. If that makes any sense,

I love that. I mean, I think you know, you have, you have big goals, like, for instance, the birth of this podcast. And it’s not just like, Okay, let’s make the podcast like, Okay, we need to do this, and then this, and then this, and all these micro tasks. And then it’s like, here we are recording episode two. It’s like, those big goals are actually always made up of small goals. And as long as you’re moving the needle forward and tackling those you’re moving that’s successful.

And you know, a big mistake I make is maybe I’m too ambitious. Sometimes I forget my successes too. So I mean, don’t forget all of those small things that you got to build up to this point, because I think what’s going to happen here is you’re going to have a successful podcast, and then you’re going to, you’re already going to be looking at the next goal. Oh, we got to get to 100 of these. We need to get 100,000 viewers, or whatever. And so you can’t, sometimes have to take a step back and look and look at what you’ve done. Because I fall into that trap a lot, where i i Forget the momentum that I’ve made, because sometimes I end up biting off more than I can chew, and I set goals that are too big instead of the small goals that are going to get me there. So I’m not saying that to you, I’m saying that more broadly to the listeners, but it’s it’s a problem that I experience too, and I think that people can learn from that. I

think there’s such value in, like, the community that we’re a part of, like, our relationship being in a business a business owner is it can be quite lonely, and you do forget about, like, look what I built. And I think we can maybe even be better about leaning on each other to go. Let’s just celebrate where we are and that we’re doing it and that we’ve done we’re here. Jordan was awesome on our first interview with Eric before, well, we started to record, but he said, before we start, just take a second to see where we’re at, and it was really awesome to just take a 30 seconds, a moment to go and appreciate the work that we’ve put into it. And here we are. And it’s actually, you know, when you look back on it’s like all those microtasks weren’t so hard, but it came out to be this big deal. Like, there someone right before this called me and was like, Hey, man, can I be a guest on your podcast? It hasn’t even launched

yet. Well, all right, this is a perfect opportunity to give your podcast little plug. You said you already had 40 people lined up for this, and you’re getting how many calls. It’s weird,

so we’ll manage that as we move forward. But I guess it’s a good problem. Have.

I’m excited to hear Eric’s podcast. I mean, I that was, is, I think brilliant. He one of the smartest guys I’ve ever talked to. So I’m excited to hear I’m disappointed because A, I didn’t get to go first, but B, I didn’t get to hear it, so I don’t have any idea of how well I’m doing compared to him. I like that. That’s a good that’s a good thing. But I mean, it’s gonna be tough to outdo him, honestly, especially on a podcast, I feel like he would lay a lot of insight down.

He was great. But just to let you know, this is great too. So yeah, thanks,

Josh. It’s just different, difference, good. I’ll take different. Yeah, I can’t outdo Eric in his own realm, so I’ll go different. That’s only way to win on that one. I think, no,

this is fantastic. I got two more rapid fire questions.

We’re doing terrible at rapid fire. Yeah,

this is good, though it’s honestly the point. What is one of your favorite business tools, technology?

We I cannot stress enough how important technology is in running a business. If you are not, it is a tool. It is the business tool now, right? And I mean, it is so vast out there. And I will say I first firm. I started with terrible case management system. I knew it was terrible, because it was like, I mean, this was 2012 and I’m pretty sure MS DOS was more sophisticated than this thing. The next one, I thought it was, it was like NASA, comparatively, I thought it was the best case management system in the world. When I went out on my own. I took the same one, and then I started saying, you know, I should look at other case management systems. Well, it turns out that I was actually left in the dust because I didn’t know what else was out there. And these other case management systems are so much better. Somehow, there’s other attorneys that don’t have case management systems. I don’t even know how they operate. And a lot of small business owners think that they can save money. And it’s it’s crazy to me, because they don’t understand how much more they can do if they have a good system, a good CRM, a good whatever. I mean, you talk about how important audio quality is on on videos, even. And obviously this isn’t a video, but this stuff matters, and if you don’t utilize technology, if you don’t care about it, if you don’t stay up to date, you’re just going to be outdated. So again, terrible answer. You asked me single most important business to one? I just gave you a broad answer, technology, but maybe it’s the ability to adapt, because you need to be able to adapt, and you need to be looking always keeping your head on the swivel for the next best option. Don’t get stagnant. There

it is, head on a swivel. I learned real early, because I’m a hockey player, and I had a coach who was just always like, head on a swivel, head on a swivel. And I was like, Okay, now I know what a swivel is. Played. You played hockey, yeah, all my life, through high school.

How do you run? Do you run like a hockey player?

I don’t know. I think I’m decent at sprinting, okay? Because it’s burst of energy.

Okay? Most hockey players, I’ve seen, they run like they’re on skates. It’s the strangest thing, I don’t know how they don’t fall over, but I mean, they’re, I imagine they’re really good on ice, but watching them run, it’s, it’s kind of hilarious. I’m always curious. I’ve never seen it run, but sure,

yeah, we got to run together. I do enjoy it, but I’ve never been analyzed. I’m like, Hey, here’s how you run. Here’s your gate. It probably is awkward. A lot of lower strength, a lot of back strength from hockey.

If, if you don’t know it, you probably run okay. I feel like all the hockey players that run like they’re on ice know it, so I think you run okay, right on you break the mold. Thanks.

All right. Last rapid fire, what do you love doing outside of work? Most

Well, we got to make sure Maggie doesn’t hear this. I actually, I really enjoy growing the business. I really do. It’s one of my favorite things. I mean, I I like relaxing. I like spending time with her. I like, I mean, I guess that would be it outside of work, would be spending time with her, but, I mean, it it’s funny, because I am always thinking about the business, and she kind of hates it sometimes. Again, I find inspiration in weird places. So we’ll be help you out to eat. I’m watching how people interact, and I’m thinking about some interaction or whatever. I mean, we’ll be at the beach, and I’m still, like, don’t get me wrong, my mind will be off work for a little bit, but then I’ll find some inspiration. And so it’s, it’s a hard question for me to answer, because so much of it is about growing the business. And now what it’s metamorphosized into is even bigger than the business. It’s growing the community. And. Collaboration, and so all of the pieces fit together. I mean, every time I meet someone, I think about how, how we can help them, how they can help us, how we can collaborate. So it’s, it’s really tough for me to think about anything outside of work, because it’s become more than it’s become more than work. It’s, I mean, I suppose it is work, but it doesn’t necessarily feel like work. So I mean, spending time with Maggie, I guess, would be the best, best thing to do outside of work. But even that’s going to end up me thinking about work, or us talking about it or something else. I mean, we can’t, both of us can’t get away from it. She’s, she’s a real estate agent. So basically, she’s 1099, she basically runs her own business too. So if it’s not me talking or thinking about work, it’s her talking or thinking about work. And weirdly enough, we talk about the businesses, and some of this stuff blends together. The practices are the same. I mean, you’re looking for clients, you’re trying to scale, you’re managing costs, you’re budgeting, you’re trying to market, you’re trying to get known, you’re trying to meet people. And so it’s, yeah, it it’s a tough question for me to answer, and it’s kind of, I guess, falls into that cliche, if you do what you love, you never work a day in your life. And don’t get me wrong, there’s a lot about law that is just grinding and grueling and tedious, but I really can’t think of anything else I would rather do

that’s awesome. I was just gonna say, yeah. I mean, if you love what you’re doing, it’s not work. It’s so cliche. But it is like, this is technically work, and I love it. It’s so fun.

I know you have me. You have my phone on airplane mode, though, and I’m kind of panicking right now. I’m wondering what emails are coming or phone calls I’ve missed, but yeah, so again, yeah, you’re right, even this is work, but I’m still still preoccupied looking I’m looking at my phone. I can’t it’s not even on, but I’m still like, what, what work Am I missing? Yeah,

this is your opportunity to disconnect a little. Forget the world. This is your world right now, me and Jordan just sitting here, relaxing. Take a nice deep breath.

Yeah, you know the green and black is actually more relaxing than I thought it would be.

I agree. Yeah, it’s nice. I want to go back, because when we went to the beach with our babes a couple months ago, we’ve got to the beach, you guys arrived. And it’s like, we immediately start, started talking about business, and we didn’t stop, and Hyundai’s like, I think she reminded us, like, Hey, you guys were we’re not at work right now. And it’s sometimes good to have that reminder. But it’s like you wound us up. You know, we’re together. How can we not?

Well, you’re you think the same way I do. You get excited about it, I mean, and again, you look at successes, and you look at the small goals and the momentum, and that’s, I mean, that’s what life’s about, is just the small goals and the momentum, and when you can direct it at something, I mean, I, I talk about, like the sports and the fans and stuff, and I absolutely, and I, I’m still a big Denver Broncos fan that they’ve been harder to like recently. But you, you love when your team wins, right? But what does it really matter, and when you can be actually operating your own business, you can be responsible for your own successes and failures, responsible for the money you’re bringing in, responsible for the money you’re not bringing in response, you end up being responsible for people. I mean, it’s, it’s like, it’s like raising, it’s like having a family. You’re responsible for for those people too, and that, to me, is more fulfilling than than watching my sports team win, because I have a real impact on that, and I grow with it. And it’s just it is exciting when you win, because it’s not like you’re watching a sports team when you are literally carrying that ball well, metaphorically, metaphorically carrying that ball across the goal line. And there is probably no sweeter feeling than actually having a real impact on the success of your team.

Yeah, I couldn’t agree more. I feel that so much, and it’s hard to think about putting all of this effort into someone else’s vision, you know. And even for me, the way I think about people helping me, like Jordan, sitting here, it’s like this, this audio division is his to run with. You know, it’s ours. It’s so hopefully you feel that, I

mean, and I think that’s the key right to good business, good community is sharing a vision. Because so often bad bad bosses, bad managers. You are working for their vision, and they’re not interested in sharing a vision. They’re not interested in a collaborative vision. But if you collaborate, if you share a vision, everyone’s interested in it because you are going to share, you’re building a community. And I think. Gotten away from that. It’s funny, you were, I think, talking about maybe the new way that lawyers might be going. I was having a conversation with Jordan A while back, and he’s like, I think this is like the new way of marketing being engaged in the community. I said, No, it’s not. It’s the old way of marketing. This is how people used to have to market before phone books, and then before websites, and before billboards and ads. And, I mean, I’m sure there were always ads of some sort, but it’s the old way of marketing. But we, I feel like society has forgotten how to share a vision it’s and don’t get me wrong, I like, I like individualism to some extent, but we can’t lose perspective of that. We are a community life’s all about relationships. Otherwise, what’s the point? What am I going to do? Who am I going to talk to? I mean, if you break this down, all we’re doing is sitting here and talking, and then there’s going to be people that are listening, because it’s going to be kind of like they’re here, and they’re going to engage in the conversation. You know what they’re going to do, they’re going to actually carry our conversation on and build on it with someone else. And that’s that’s community. But what is that? Relationships? Oh, boy.

Well, let’s just chalk that up to probably going to be one of the longer rapid fires, but totally worth it. So you win, you’re probably, you’re gonna, I

think I lose actually. I mean, there’s

no winners or losers on this. I

hold the record for most interceptions here. Not sure. I’m not sure I got the most touchdowns, but certainly most interceptions on the longest rapid fire, longest rapid fire record.

Yeah, love it. So

far, for sure, one out of two. I’ll take it

just to kind of conclude. I have a few things. One, I want to talk about, what are your what does the firm look like in five to 10 years? What are what are some of your big future goals, obviously, building the community, but what does that look like?

Well, good question. I mean, I’ve got a plan, but one thing I’ve learned about business and life is that plans change, and things don’t go to plans, and sometimes it’s better than what you’ve planned. Excuse me. So what I think, I mean, what it’s going to look like here, is I want to build so we kind of talked about, going back to what we talked about earlier, the sports team model of business here. So we’ve got the legal team, and we’re expanding that, and we’ve almost got what I would consider to be a full, fully staffed legal team, I guess. And once we’re a fully staffed legal team, the next goal would be to break off the most senior attorney there. Well, second most, I guess the most senior attorney is going to stay. The second most senior attorney is probably going to break off and begin to start. I’m going to say his, because right now, David Hines is our associate, absolutely brilliant guy. He’s doing phenomenal. He’s really kind of taken the firm to the next level. He’s helped us turn a corner, and one day, my plan is to have him break off and form his own legal team under the firm, because we want, we want to have teams that aren’t too big, so we can still be flexible. We can still be adaptable. And these attorneys who are leading the legal team, are going to be almost responsible. It’s almost like a little mini firm under under the firm umbrella. Meanwhile, of course, we’re going to have kind of a business side, and so we’re going to continue growing the community. We’re going to continue engaging in the community, because, really, it’s fun, but it’s also our single best form of marketing. I mean, it’s when people, people are afraid of lawyers. They can’t relate to lawyers, and a lot of that’s our fault. We don’t like I said, we don’t educate. We’re not involved in the community. And I think, as you said, people are running around not knowing the law. And if we can actually engage with the community, it’s going to make everyone better, but also it makes it very easy to ask an attorney about your problems. If you already know me, it’s easy to give me a call. If you already familiar with my team, you feel this level of trust, and so we want to keep doing that, keep building the community. And what we need to do is get more of our team as we grow out there. Now the balance the trade off right is that we need to have people doing the legal work, so they can’t be out there all the time, which is why we’re kind of building out this business side. But we also need our players engaged, because nobody cares about the guy that sells the tickets like they don’t know. They don’t Tom the ticket salesman. They know. I’ll go with Josh Allen for Maggie. She’s big Bills fan. They know Josh Allen, right, and so Josh Allen’s got to be the one who’s running and heading the charity, not Tom the ticket guy. So we we still need to bring our attorneys and make them, give them some exposure, put them on different boards, make them real leaders in the community. Community. And I do think it is helpful knowing the law and knowing how to navigate the law, especially when you’re looking at building a community, because so often that’s the hiccup, and that’s one of the big reasons people hate lawyers, especially business people. They’ve got this vision. They don’t understand the law at all. They’re going full full steam ahead, and then they finally talk to an attorney, and the attorney says, Well, you can’t do that, and so it stops them in their tracks. And what feeling Are you going to feel, except hate for someone who stops you in your tracks? But if you’re talking to attorneys, if we’re actually engaged and for helping build the community, from the outset, we can set the direction right so that that momentum is going to keep building. It’s not going to stop, if anything, we might have to turn but it’s not going to just stop dead in its tracks. After you got this whole plan together, you think is going to work, and it turns out there’s some law that just derails you. So that’s, it’s, it’s more amorphous than anything else. I mean, I mean, I just, I want to continue to grow. I want to continue to be involved. I want to collaborate with other business owners. I think that. I mean, even even in the chamber, even even with the small businesses, I feel like there’s a lot more collaboration that could happen. I think you’re Josh breaking the mold in that. I mean, this podcast is a collaboration, right? Because it’s good for you, but it’s going to be good for me, because I’m going to get to share this and and all of them, My people who would listen to me are now going to be familiar with you, and you’re going to share it, and all the people who are familiar with you that I wouldn’t know and wouldn’t know me are going to be familiar with me, so I hope to continue a collaboration, and I hope that it’s not so much. Here’s a law firm, here’s a website for development firm, here’s whatever, and it’s a real community. So that’s kind of my goal for the firm is, yeah, we’re always gonna be the firm. We’re always going to be the law firm of Douglas G Jackson. Maybe we’ll change the name if we bring on partners or whatever, but we’ll always have that. But I don’t want the lines to be so clear. I want the lines to blur a little bit, because if we’re not collaborating, we’re not helping people the most. I mean when, when we get a business client who’s starting a business. If I’m not introducing them to you, because they don’t have a website yet, I’m not helping them as much as I could. If I’m not introducing them to maybe Eric to help them, kind of coach. Maybe they’ve been a technician, but they’ve never been a business owner before. I’m not helping them as much as I could, and that’s not going to give anything to me, but it will, because if I’m helping them, we’re building a community, we’re building a collaboration, and everyone’s going to be helping everybody. Love it.

Heck yeah, I’m

really bad at answering questions. Short.

Now, that’s the beauty of podcasts. Can be long. There’s no format. There’s no rules. This is not necessarily like law.

What is that? No rules, just right. Rules, just right. What is that?

Leave a comment. Let us know

that’s a Burger King. Are you Burger King? I don’t know. Oh, man. Now

that’s gonna bother me. Like, Break me off a piece of that barbecue sauce. Yeah, there it is. Okay. We were talking earlier. I think your biggest piece of advice for people is like preventative maintenance. Because you’re as lawyers, you’re always fixing something that has been done so obviously, number one, people should follow the law as much as they know what the law is. Some of it more obvious than not. But for people listening, maybe more focused on the business owner side. What? What can people do to prove, you know, to be proactive in their business and their endeavors?

Well, educate themselves is one big way, and one of the ways to do that, especially from a legal Well, I mean, going back to what we said, business is more than just law, right? I mean businesses, how do you brand yourself? How do you build your website? So you should always be talking to others, because, as you pointed out earlier, Josh, you don’t know what you don’t know, but you can learn by without making mistakes, by talking to others, by learning from mistakes they’ve made, by listening to their advice. And now that doesn’t mean that their advice is always going to be right. I’ve got a lot of bad advice too, but the more people you talk to, the more you can kind of sift through that. What’s good advice? What’s bad advice? If you start talking to 10 people and three people, one person tells you something and nine people are telling you something, else, you kind of can figure out which is the bad advice. And so it’s always better to talk to more people. It’s always better to read more books. It’s always better. To have more information, and then you gotta, you have to use your own head, right? You have to use judgment. Some people are better at that than others, but I mean, one of the things we do, from a legal perspective, is we offer what’s called, what we call a subscription type service, or we’re gonna probably start calling it a membership type service. When you look at any big business, they have, they have their in house counsel. Why do you think that is and but when you look at small businesses, they think they can’t afford attorneys. But if we with their subscription or membership type plan, it’s a monthly thing. And one of the things we do is we have a monthly phone call, and we actually try to make them, we make them have that phone call. I mean, sometimes they’ll cancel or whatever, but it’s not a use it or you lose it thing. And the reason for that is I don’t know about their business unless I’m talking to them about it. They don’t know about the law unless they’re talking to me about it. And so they don’t necessarily know what they don’t know, but if I’m learning about their business, I can help them understand where their pitfalls are. And so a lot of times, especially with attorneys, it’s almost the opposite. Let me call you and ask you questions. The problem with that is you don’t know what you don’t know. You can’t ask a question if you don’t know that you’re doing it wrong. So we almost take the opposite approach with that. So that’s one way that you can help yourself navigate the law. And I mean, I’ll be honest, when you’re a small business, you got to figure out what your costs are, but the more you can outsource early, the better you’re going to be, because if you’re a business like you Josh, you build websites. Guess what? Researching the law is not going to make you any money. Learn doing figuring out how to do your own books is not going to make you any money. So the sooner you can outsource those things, the sooner you can can hire me to help you navigate the law. The sooner you can hire a bookkeeper to help you navigate the books, the better you are going to be able to focus on getting clients who need websites, and that’s going to build you more money. And so this is, I mean, we’re talking about you, but this is true for any business owner. Focus on what builds you revenue. That is your single most important thing as a business owner, focus on what builds you revenue, and try to utilize the knowledge of other people. The other thing that happens here, I don’t even remember the question anymore. The other thing that happens here is, if I hire you to do the website instead of doing it myself, a, it’s better, but B, I’m invested in you, and so now I’m giving you money, and so you care about my well being, and so are you more likely to refer me business? Absolutely, because you want me to keep paying you money. So but you build a community that way. So I mean, you the best thing you can do. I think it was, what can small businesses do to help educate themselves? Or something is lean, lean on others. You’re not in this alone. It might feel that way. You might feel like you’re on an island. I know that I felt that way when I started a business. But a lot and some small business owners are really competitive, but a lot aren’t. And I think if you can join a good group, like I, I’m a big fan of the Chamber of Commerce, you can find like minded people who are going to collaborate, who are going to share, and yeah, you’re going to make some mistakes, but join different groups, try to fit in, try to try to get plugged in, you will start figuring out pretty quickly if You’re being plugged into a network, or if you’re not, and if you’re being plugged into a network, that’s a good one. If you’re spinning your wheels, that’s not necessarily good one. Now we I can’t get away from talking about networking, because it’s so, so important here. But it takes time, right? It takes. I mean, I figured it takes about, takes about three times of going to any event before you start to know enough people you feel comfortable. And then it probably about five or six times before you know if there’s any real worth in that. And it’s, it is tough. But ask people early on, ask people for help, ask people who they use, ask people they can introduce you to because that, that’s what really accelerated me, is when I started saying, Okay, who can you introduce me to? It’s not, not about getting business, not about referrals, just about introductions, because you learn so much, and you never know where a referral is going to come from. So that I think you asked me one thing, and again, I’m a lawyer. Brevity is not my strong suit. I just try to out talk people.

You’re good at it. I mean, you nailed on so many different things for me, leaning on connections and the community. I think the buzzword for this entire talk is about. Immunity. You know, our last one was about relationships, and this one too. I mean, there are certain threads that are just consistent across businesses, but when you’re when you’re plugged in and you’re becoming friends with people, I don’t see much competition out there. There’s so many people who do websites and creative production and marketing and podcast production, that’s cool. And in fact, let’s talk, and we learn from each other, or we learn, hey, oh, you don’t do this, and I do and vice versa. And we can actually help each other. We can lift each other up. One thing that was so cool when I when I really got into the business world, it broke down walls. And Jordan has expressed this to me, where it’s like the people behind these companies are just nice human beings. It’s not like some and early on in my life, when I saw music professionals, you know, like bands, I was like, wow, they aren’t, like, real. But then I started to become a musician, play out, play on stage, and I’m like, You know what? Everybody is, just a person, just like me out there. They’re just either working a little harder, they have a great idea. They’re putting out more effort, putting themselves out there. There’s so much to that. And just to plug you, I think you’re very different than other lawyers i and people in general, like, right when I met you, and I get this all the time, is people are like, Doug is different. He’s so personable, I feel like I’m talking to a friend. That’s huge. And what’s cool is knowing you for this long now, it’s authentic. You clearly that’s you, and that sets you apart. So a big fan. You know, your law firm is doing awesome things, but I’m a big fan of you, and I just want to tell you, I appreciate you coming on here, and you know, helping us with our contracts and all sorts of stuff, that our partnership is a friendship. It’s awesome.

Well, thanks, Josh. I’m happy this is a podcast, because you’re making blush so nobody can see that. But, I mean, I guess maybe that’s the whole theme, right? Is that you’re just again, going back to relationships. You’re just making friends and friends do business with friends. And, I mean, you want to see your friends do well. And I every time you bring up a point, I want to make another point, because I’m a lawyer, and I have to do that. But it is funny. I mean, I’ve talked about it with my I’ve seen it with my own business. I’ve talked about it with Maggie issues growing that we have this problem where we we want to, we don’t help our friends and their businesses, a lot of times we success begets success, which is really weird, and I don’t think it should be that way, but the better your business looks, the bigger it looks, the more likely people are going to go to the more successful you look, already, the more likely people are going to use you. And we can’t forget that when people are starting out, it’s hard to look successful. They don’t have the money, and we need to, we need to help our friends, and so you need to leave. I mean, okay, fine, you can, you can like Coca Cola or whatever. But guess what? They’ve got enough likes. But a small business that’s your friend if you like their social media page, if you follow, if you comment, if you leave reviews, that’s a big difference. I mean, we talk about in economics, we talk about change on the margin, and that that’s a big marginal change. Going from zero to one is enormous. Going from 100,000 to 100,001 that’s tiny. So the the little things you can do for the people who are the startups, give them a chance. Give them a chance. And you know what? Maybe you can help teach them something too. Because really, it’s about building friendships. That’s if you’re just trying to make friends, and you are being genuine about making friends, you’re going to be pretty successful. So that’s, that’s my methodology. I know that you have that too, because you’re also one of the few people that I right away was like this. This guy’s different. And you surround yourself with people like that too. Every like, I mean, you introduced me to Jordan, and immediately, same kind of thought is, this guy’s different. There’s this genuineness, this caringness. And so I think that if you really try to make friends like genuinely friends, not like I need to make friends, but you actually want to make friends, because you care about people and you care about relationships, you’re going to find that you are suddenly surrounded by like minded people, and you’re going to find that you’re more successful. And I mean, you talked about how people behind businesses are just they’re good people, and most of the time it’s because they’ve built a community. I mean, a business is a community. We. Called an organization. It’s just an organization of people, and it takes good people who actually, genuinely care about others to get the momentum to build that. And yeah, Josh, I mean, I wish I could ask you the questions, because I’m excited to see where you go with name and creative.

Thanks, man. I appreciate it. You’re making me blush now.

I think it’s a podcast. Yeah, touche,

I appreciate you coming on. I appreciate our friendship, and I look forward to the future. Man, thanks again.

I appreciate you having me. I mean, we covered a lot of topics, maybe too much. I’m afraid you’re not gonna be able to invite me back. I don’t know what we’ll talk about, but, yeah, hopefully, hopefully, when you get your through your list, which I’m not sure you’re gonna get through anytime soon, you can have me back. 100% yeah, thanks so much for having me. This was this was fun and easier than I thought. And I will say, though I not sure you were right, this microphone being like three inches in front of my face never got totally comfortable, but it is. It’s a little better now, but you make the conversation easy so it makes sense.

I’m glad to hear it. You’ll definitely be back on. So stay tuned. People, All right,

thanks again. Josh, wait, you’re the host. You end it. Sorry, I can’t help myself.

Oh, no, you end it. Well, now I’ve ended it. Dang it. See you

later. See you. Next time,

I’ll see you. Next Time The David creative channel, you

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