28 Documentary Filmmaking & Teaching for Social Change (w C. Thomas Lewis)

Josh Naaman: Thomas Lewis. Thank you for coming on the show.

Thomas Lewis: Hello. Absolutely.

Josh Naaman: I’m gonna set it up because there’s a lot to say and I think the context will give the listener some just understanding of what we’re diving into and it’ll make it smoother. So, without further ado, you have been a cinematographer. At least it shows in your LinkedIn and I feel like it’s probably accurate a cinematographer and video producer for 31 years accurate,

Thomas Lewis: my somewhat accurate. I mean I started out doing some stuff like that but also I shoot a lot of films so I guess I shoot them. I make them so sure, why not? That.

Josh Naaman: 31 years though. Over 30 years is a pretty good time frame.

Thomas Lewis: Over 30 years. Yeah, absolutely.

Josh Naaman: So you’re a little experienced is what I want to get across here. And you are currently a teaching professor at Indiana University Indianapolis.

Thomas Lewis: True.

Josh Naaman: And that’s where you were my master’s professor. When I was doing my master’s program and you taught several of my classes and then, you are also my master’s thesis advisor, which thank you. It was a,…

Thomas Lewis: Yeah.

Josh Naaman: it was a wonderful partnership in that, and it’s fair to say that without meeting you. I may not have started podcast or taken it a seriously, and

Josh Naaman: Ben is interested in documentaries and probably wouldn’t have even started the audio division here at Naaman Creative because all those things, make something a reality. And I wanted to first out the gate, tell you that, I appreciate you for that nudge and the knowledge behind it. Because I learned so much, technically philosophically from your classes, and I learned about documentaries, that we watched and studied that I probably would have never heard about or thought about which moved the needle in various directions to what’s possible to cover, and how to cover it. Because real quick, a long-term goal of Naaman Creative is not just to work for clients but also to have our own internal projects and part of that will be documentary filmmaking in the future once I can build up enough capital because it’s not easy as we’re about to dive into. But so real quick some of the film topics that

Josh Naaman: Cover are opioid addiction drug recovery, HIV, Kenyan, narrative films which I love. They’re full of color and texture. There’s a real unique authenticity with those that I truly enjoy. I think that’s what gives them a lot of flavor inherently but Yeah, you’ve also worked with your daughter, a lot like talking about her working. Her grad school in Norway and you’re older experimental films, which we might tap into a little here, so, these films and this is just like a snippet, but you’ve won awards and been selected and festivals such as Heartland Film Festival. The African International Film Festival, Indy, Best Film Awards Circle, City, Film Fest

Josh Naaman: Paxco Filmfest Highland New Media Festival. Indie filmfest Cork, Zion Klein Cap awareness. And American Public Health Association film festivals to name a few. Those are what I could just quickly scour. I was Whoa. So,…

Thomas Lewis: I didn’t know there’s a Wow,…

Josh Naaman: there’s your intro.

Thomas Lewis: it’s funny. Hearing your life put out that way. No. But I appreciate, it’s always fun to hear the effect. You have on students who take from your classes, what they can and then use that in their career. I mean, that obviously that’s the point of teaching, but hearing it. Is always really rewarding and it’s one thing I love about teaching. Is you plant these seeds that sometimes you’re not even aware that you plan.

Josh Naaman: Yeah.

Josh Naaman: Hundred percent. Yeah.

Thomas Lewis: and then you see it, we haven’t talked in a long time and to see what you’ve done in the meantime, I love seeing what students have gone on to do in their careers and launching their careers and what they’ve taken from their experience in my classes. It’s awesome. Yeah.

Josh Naaman: Yeah. I’m glad that I can make you a little proud there.

Thomas Lewis: Yeah,…

Thomas Lewis: So rewarding

Josh Naaman: Consider seeds planted. When I taught at the Art Institute, it was like for six years I wasn’t teaching that long but that was a good stint to now it’s been a while and I do see students like working on films having their own businesses or doing freelance or I hired one of them to work with me, And that’s super cool contractually. But it is unbelievable. what you don’t even realize because I know that there’s also people out there who I don’t get feedback from, but maybe the way I constructed a class one day really resonated with them and either kept them going or open their eyes to a different method or approach and that’s kind of like what you’re talking about the seeds, they’re so valuable.

Thomas Lewis: Yeah, I mean so often we have students in our program who have very limited experience in production and video production. Which is what I teach sometimes. Virtually none. And so you have this opportunity early on to set that foundation of practice What is good practice. We’re best professional practices. also, that motivation into gear where you give students an opportunity to understand what the profession is like that they’ve chosen And what’s in gonna be involved in that?

Josh Naaman: Yeah.

Thomas Lewis: And to get them excited about their choice.

Thomas Lewis: So, you play a lot of roles as an instructor merely than just here’s how you do this here. So you do that. there’s so much more to it, that really helps. Shape. Yeah, people’s careers, people’s choices that they make.

Josh Naaman: absolutely, you nailed it. And it’s interesting because one thing that bothers me continually day after day, is the value placed on education and educators it’s an issue and I respect so many people like yourself Zeb, our friends over, your school and others where you guys keep at it, educating, regardless of the Difficulty that comes with it, whether it be from the parents, or what’s going on with the student or salary, negotiations, or the school, and how you deal with what’s going on with the school and politics. It’s a difficult thing to navigate when you’re juggling, all of those things that you just described on the job itself.

Thomas Lewis: And I think lately we’ve seen a big turn and a lot of people’s perception of the value of higher education. just through, polling people that people do. I think you could say in the last three or four years. higher education went from being held highly in high esteem to being a really questioning whether it was worth it, whether it’s worth the money and I get it because a lot of higher education, the costs have become prohibitively high, at least I teach at a state school so it’s a little different than the private schools but still, I mean, it’s an honest question for people. Do they want to go into debt? How much are they comfortable going into debt? Is this going to get them a job? I understand all that but still for us it’s really important that we’re delivering

Thomas Lewis: We’re delivering that value, we’re giving students that experience that will support them. And the thing about going into something like film production, video production, it’s not necessarily a straight path like so many other careers. if you go into medicine it’s all laid out for you. Right? It’s hard as can be but That path has clearly id out for Clearly laid out for you being an artist or creative or somebody involved in digital media of any sort often. it’s not such a straight line and it involves freelance work or starting your own business, and it’s not just like, I’m gonna get out. I land this job. Boom done. Okay, I go to work, Some people get hired at companies, absolutely, but a lot of it is, you’re out there hustling. And to do that, you need to have a certain degree of confidence in yourself. You need to have a certain degree of just comfort in your own skin.

Thomas Lewis: To, Interact with people put yourself out there, be comfortable socially, as you sort of so much of it is who, Of course. It’s So it’s meeting and networking and I try to really, drive that home with my students, what you learn in class is one thing but who you meet here your classmates who you could be working with, after you leave here, who you’d be competing with after you leave here. Here’s your chance to start to hone those networking skills. Here’s your chance to form, you’re sort of social capital here.

Thomas Lewis: At school and even to some extent, learn how to speak to adults and interact with adults. Like I say, practice on me, come to my office hours, talk to me practice on me because pretend I’m hiring you or something, whatever it takes for you to sort of gain that comfort level because that’s what you’ll need. When you go out there in the professional world, if you’re going to succeed at freelance. Let’s just tough, it’s tough, and it’s really tough, I’m sure.

Thomas Lewis: A lot of students to say to their parents. Yeah, I go into video, I love video area.

Josh Naaman: but,

Thomas Lewis: What’s the job when you get out of video? the same conversation. I had when I went to school for photography and undergraduate. you get out you hustle or my case eventually went to grad school but yeah, There sure is a lot to it. So I always have my eye on trying to Prepare students for All of those things, all aspects of what’s involved in, finding success after they graduate.

Josh Naaman: Yeah, I can attest that you do that that is the trickiest part of the job from what I experienced on both ends teaching and being taught because not all teachers nail it because it’s extremely difficult to have that holistic approach. When you’re trying to make sure, they know something technically but you’re also encouraging the go to cigarette and film club, and get an internship and study abroad. It’s like, Okay, what time is it, you…

Thomas Lewis: Yeah. Yeah.

Josh Naaman: and are we on the lesson? Do we have a test? what’s going on? It’s so much to juggle but you nailed it and that the other thing is, for me, getting outside the class and getting involved in SIGGRAPH and student organizations and student government that really changed my life. that is the value of going to college to university. Of course, taking the classes is a huge part of it. But if you’re only doing that and going home, you Sing out on an enormous part.

Thomas Lewis: You just quoted me. That’s exactly what I tell students. if you want to sit at home and do your work, you’re missing out on, you could be sitting, because it’s kind of an informal lab for video students. It’s like, you should be doing that work there and then you’re interacting with your classmates, you’re asking them their opinion, they’re asking you of your opinion and you’re forming, those relationships, that you aren’t going to do sitting at home working in the dark, in a vacuum. I mean, it’s just not gonna happen. so put yourself out there and,…

Josh Naaman: .

Thomas Lewis: and be present. I mean, who has the wonderful quote? What is it about? 90% of it is just showing up, it’s so much.

Josh Naaman: Stir.

Thomas Lewis: It is just show up, be there, ask questions. get involved and that is

Thomas Lewis: All outside of the class is what I’m talking about the time, outside of the class, where you can put into practice, the things you’re learning in class, and you can form those relationships with your fellow classmates.

Josh Naaman: Mm- So what we can do is trim this audio clip here and you can just sit down on the first day of each class and press play on this snippet and you go. All right, you guys good. Now we can move forward. It, mean, but there’s so much to it because when we started talking, it just got me thinking about You can learn and it’s fantastic that anything about, art technical, whatever it may be from Photoshop to DaVinci resolve and After Effects and anything in between, how to work a camera. For free on the Internet somewhere.

Josh Naaman: But that’s only a piece of the puzzle. for me, if all programs went away tomorrow and there was a new programs that all we had to learn. It wouldn’t be an issue, it wouldn’t stop my business because it’s a mindset that I’ve learned how to learn through going through university, in my masters, that’s the ticket where it doesn’t matter about the It’s about your interactions with the people. it’s about the principles, putting them in action and your strategy behind that the tool is just to get the job done. I told you, Adobe audition is messed up right now for me, for some reason. It doesn’t matter. I’m using GarageBand to record. it’s an audio program that records. My voice and that’ll be fine.

Thomas Lewis: Right. Right. Yeah.

Thomas Lewis: Yeah, I’m trying to think, maybe in 2014 or 13 introduced a class where students work on a film together in class time. so you think about most students, they would come to school to teach to learn about making films, but they never had the opportunity to work with any sort of larger crew and instead they make films alone or with their friend, two or three people, So I wanted to create a situation where we’re shooting in class using the entire class or sometimes if it’s really highly enrolled class. Then I split it into two groups but we’re suddenly afforded the luxury of having a crew of 10 people who have responsibilities and we rotate those responsibilities. Those crew members, rotate through each group position every week of the shoot, so they can experience that.

Thomas Lewis: Regular job and its responsibilities. So, we’re shooting. During class time. But we to not even only one day. Could you shoot on campus? Otherwise we’re shooting a locations around the city so we’re using the city we’re taking advantage of students resources. Maybe it’s their apartment, or their parents’ house, or a friend’s house or whatever we’re doing. So they write the film shoot, the film everybody edits their own version of the film and we try to simulate what it’s like to be on a narrative film production set, and all the problem, all the sort of proper procedures that are in place for that, and that’s been really rewarding because now students, that isn’t one thing like you said, That’s something I can bring to it that you’re not gonna get from YouTube videos and learning online. you have this sort of social dynamic and then they form friendships in that class and they go into make other films together on their own time, which is just wonderful to see.

Thomas Lewis: So I love that course. Yeah. Yeah.

Josh Naaman: That’s a fantastic course. It’s brilliant. And that’s the reality of it. You watch any film short? Big small the credits are overwhelming. I mean, we went to, the wolverine. And my gosh. I’m blanking on the other guys name.

Thomas Lewis: Don’t look at me to help you,…

Thomas Lewis: yeah, right,…

Josh Naaman: Deadpool, that’s it.

Josh Naaman: Deadpool and roll over in or…

Thomas Lewis: yes, yes,…

Josh Naaman: what really follow the marvel,…

Thomas Lewis: right. Yeah.

Josh Naaman: but it was actually quite well done. But the credits, I mean, I’m like, When is it going to end?

Thomas Lewis: Yeah. …

Josh Naaman: How many people that’s this thing?

Thomas Lewis: it’s insane.

Josh Naaman: It’s not they’ve made a billion dollars.

Thomas Lewis: It’s insane. Yeah. Yeah.

Josh Naaman: They broke a billion, it’s wild.

Thomas Lewis: Unbelievable.

Josh Naaman: But I mean that’s the reality of it, it takes many years and thousands of people to do this stuff.

Thomas Lewis: Yeah.

Josh Naaman: I mean, there’s so many logistics once you dive in. That’s the thing about production. Now that I’m also producing other people’s podcasts and even just like my sales journey on creative production, whether it be making a website or a logo or designs for people, it’s always been partially an educational. Part with the sales process Where Why does a logo cost that I go? I don’t just snap my fingers and Do that. It’s a whole process and it takes a team. and it takes time,…

Thomas Lewis: Yeah.

Josh Naaman: You look at it afterwards and you go. Wow, that’s a simple. Well designed logo.

Thomas Lewis: Right. Yeah.

Josh Naaman: Yes, because it took a lot of work to get there. Yeah.

Thomas Lewis: Yeah, you don’t want it to show that work, It should look nice and simple and easy and…

Josh Naaman: Exactly.

Thomas Lewis: it hides, the fact that so much went into it. Yeah.

Josh Naaman: Yeah a shot that you’re looking at some of your shots, I was watching. gosh, unexpected gift. I believe it was And you were on the roof with Todd Shelton.

Thomas Lewis: yeah, so that’s what Yeah. Okay.

Josh Naaman: I saw Hey, there’s an actor I recognize and I was like, It’s most people go. Okay they’re on a roof but it’s the person behind the camera and maybe with the boom, they’re on the roof.

Thomas Lewis: On the roof. Yeah. Which can be tricky. Yeah, yeah. And even those films…

Josh Naaman: In dangerous.

Thomas Lewis: there were two narrative films made with a part of a grant to do this project about opioid addiction and southern Indiana and Scott County Indiana.

Thomas Lewis: The logistics of course, become huge. So I can talk about that project a little bit, It was fun project. I’ll give you a little background, tell you a little story, so I had done. Some narrative filmmaking in Kenya about HIV stigma the films, They’re four films, I don’t forget no short narrative films that we made the course of six very difficult challenging weeks, one summer in Eldoret Kenya and then, the following year there was a big AIDS conference held in South Africa where I went to show the show there’s a poster session and part of the film was going to be shown there and everything. So I went to South Africa for that,

Thomas Lewis: And this was a huge collaborative project working with students in Kenya on the shooting and they’re in the film, and they’re crewing the films. And then my students back here in Indiana editing, the film’s with students who spoke Swahili, because they’re all shot and Swahili. So they worked with Swahili students to make sure we were getting the editing. And then at that age convention, I forget if it was the opening night or the closing night, they have one big, huge gathering, and this is the international convention on AIDS. So there are thousands of people there. So they have an arena that holds. I don’t know, 10 or 15,000 people. Bill Gates, it’s a big deal. Prince Harry is there? There’s a lot of people there presenting and they do this sort of, Talk about the state of AIDS and HIV in various countries around the world and suddenly they’re talking about Scott County Indiana.

Josh Naaman: Really.

Thomas Lewis: And I was just like, what? I might jaw, just hit the ground, Scott County, any other about all of the world and there’s on the Scott County, Indiana? Just like, what’s going on with? Why don’t I know about this? So, apparently, there was a big issue in Scott County with sharing needles, and that caused this, huge HIV outbreak in Scott County. And then It was considered a state medical emergency and…

Josh Naaman: Mmm.

Thomas Lewis: they set up the first Rural needle exchange in the country there. Yes, so it was gonna come up for renewal recently and…

Josh Naaman: Really.

Thomas Lewis: I don’t know if it got renewed or not but it banned it was running for quite a while and of course you have to imagine the amount of stigma that had to overcome.

Thomas Lewis: In a conservative role, Southern Indiana setting. But we started to do. I sat there that conference and I was like, I know the next thing I’m working on, it’s like day my own backyard. So we Got a grant to make a series of work about opioids, here in Indiana. So we interviewed a few dozen people. Those interviews are online made a documentary about a guy here in Indianapolis who found recovery through long distance running. But part of it was, We work with people in Scott County too. We interviewed them. We try to take their stories and create narrative films of them. So originally, there were three scripts we only got through two of them though. Before.

Thomas Lewis: Nick, we ran out of funds and we soon came up against the whole pandemic and everything, but we got two of them made working with local people in And behind the scenes, working on the crew. Which just became an incredibly. Rewarding experience for everybody. And It was a challenge. So the first one that you were talking about an unexpected gift,

Thomas Lewis: We hadn’t really made a lot of headway into the community. At that point, we’d been down there. We’d gone to a lot of meetings. It takes a long time to win the trust of people, there’s of course suspicious of people, when HIV outbreak was happening in the Needle, Exchange was being set up. There were reporters from all over the world, come in there it was like a big crazy deal that they were suddenly in the spotlight. And I think a lot of people didn’t want that kind of spotlight, but we had to sort of work our way into the recovery community there. Because we weren’t coming down asking we went wouldn’t want to take from them. We wanted to work with them to tell their stories. And our first film, we had some headway into that community. We still had to work with actors from that we brought in but the second time we were working with local people to act in the films and

Thomas Lewis: I think it brought an increased sense of authenticity To the filmmaking. But that’s the kind of filmmaking that really interests me where you can tell this authentic stories of people who are, struggling against something that they’re trying to find a solution to

Josh Naaman: I can definitely see that that’s the thread through all of them. But, there’s a clear thread of what your documentary topics kind of, like pull at, which is The point of documentary production is shedding light on something that’s important, close to your heart and that should be. Shared educationally with people to, make awareness on these topics. And there’s a lot there to uncover, whatever topic you choose, I could choose this pen that I’m holding right here and we could go and do a deep dive into how that plastic is manufactured. And then find the factory and talk about the factory workers and their conditions with that plastic and maybe it’s great, or maybe we can cover that it’s awful, and we can learn a whole lot.

Thomas Lewis: Yeah.

Josh Naaman: it’s so powerful and so to kind of back up. I wanted to ask you What was the first or What was the main?

Josh Naaman: The main driver that got you into filmmaking and specifically documentary filmmaking. That was so powerful.

Thomas Lewis: 

Thomas Lewis: So I fell in love with photography at a very young age nine or ten. I was learning how to make a pinhole camera. Yeah, my father came home with a camera and probably 1973 and learned how to use it and I was just like a 10. I’m telling everybody, I want to be a photographer when I grow up and I have a love of photography to this day. yeah.

Josh Naaman: It’s clear. You still do great photography.

Josh Naaman: When you post photos, I love it.

Thomas Lewis: Thanks, thanks.

Thomas Lewis: Yeah, there’s something about photography just yeah, it’s awesome. I love it.

Josh Naaman: I agree.

Thomas Lewis: And then I studied photography at first of these photo journalism at Kent State in Ohio and…

Josh Naaman: Mmm.

Thomas Lewis: then I realized the photojournalism just wasn’t my interest in photography. My interest in photography was much more, sort of a fine art approach so I transferred to

Thomas Lewis: The Philadelphia College of Art. In downtown Philadelphia. Rip Just Its doors early.

Josh Naaman: No.

Thomas Lewis: This summer, the oldest art school in the country. It become the University of the Arts and I was in the first graduating class of the University of the Arts And somehow it. Died, sad death after I think over 125 years of being an article, it’s just tragic. But there I studied filmmaking with a filmmaker named Peter Rose, who’s an incredible experimental filmmaker to this day. He’s still around and he really just inspired me all the filmmakers. There is another guy John Columbus who

Thomas Lewis: Ran the Black Mariah Film Festival in New Jersey, Edison’s Old Place, and the People there. I know they were welcoming and I sort of taking as many film classes as I could photography classes. And then one day, we had a visiting artist to visiting filmmaker. Named James Benning come and show a film and I was blown away by the stone, was a film called Landscape Suicide and I’m like, I need to study with this guy. Where and he taught at Calarts, I’m like, okay then I’ve done applying to Calarts. so I applied to Calarts and this was probably at this point. By the time I did that I was out of school for a year or two, maybe something maybe a year. I don’t quite remember. I went there in 90.

Thomas Lewis: And study was just great faculty there and just love my time at Cal Arts and knew that I just at that point was just thoroughly into the world of filmmaking.

Thomas Lewis: And lately, the last few years, turning my attention back more to photography as well. But I was Hooked on filmmaking. Okay, so I had a little video editing business in Hollywood with A,…

Josh Naaman: 

Thomas Lewis: with a classmate of mine after graduating that we ran for about three years. And then I was doing all kinds of freelance work over the years, probably knows most notably would be working with Warner Brothers on the Harry Potter DVD series of special feature production for DVDs back when it would DVDs or at their heyday. Yeah, yeah.

Josh Naaman: I’ll have to check out Harry Potter, never heard of it. Must be small.

Thomas Lewis: I know.

Thomas Lewis: I have to tell them about it so I did that for eight years.

Josh Naaman: Yeah.

Thomas Lewis: Yeah. Doing that starting on the very first film and…

Josh Naaman: Cheese.

Josh Naaman: Wow.

Thomas Lewis: yeah that was a Hard work but a great time started out it in foreign languages. But then by the time I left I was producing and doing post-production supervision Because we made all kinds of stuff and by the time I left, we were making them for Blu-ray and HD DVD. If you remember that format It lost the wars, it was the …

Josh Naaman: Yeah.

Thomas Lewis: but yeah, so we were making stuff for those platforms and Yeah, that’s great. It was great. It was a good gig. I have to say Yeah.

Josh Naaman: I just read one of Circuit City’s downfalls was because they tried to create a new kind of DVD where it had an expiration. Did you ever hear about that?

Thomas Lewis: No, no. Really.

Josh Naaman: Yeah, where you had to renew it or it would erase and…

Thomas Lewis: my God.

Josh Naaman: and that was one of the downfalls because they blew a ton of money through that new particular technology of DVD and they expiration, Yeah, I just read about it. But anyways,

Thomas Lewis: That’s hurting because that reminds me though. I don’t know if you had them in the Midwest here or not, but we had these things, I think they were called redbox. They were like, you’d go up to a vending machine into DVD,…

Josh Naaman: Yeah. We’re still down here in Florida.

Thomas Lewis: And if I recall though, those dvds expired, those DVDs would just suddenly they didn’t last all that long. so if you just didn’t return it,…

Josh Naaman: 

Thomas Lewis: it basically slowly died on you, you just reminding me of that. I don’t trust me on that, but I think I recall that

Josh Naaman: Maybe someone from Circuit City, just bailed to another place. And Adopted that technology Circuit City that’s rude.

Thomas Lewis: I remember I was working at Phillips that invented the CD and the DVD Phillips media and their Phillips out of Europe. I was working for them Phillips media. They had immediate division At the time I worked for them in Los Angeles doing some video editing. They had a platform called CDI, so CDI was not very well known in the United States, but it was very popular in Europe. It was basically an interactive it was like a CD-ROM but it was a DVD. so they call it CDI or Dvdi. I think they were both but it was a set top thing then you would control it. so I worked for them for a while but I remember it must have been CD because Here’s why the CD because I was working for them. The summer that they announced the invention of the DVD. 1995, I guess it was,…

Josh Naaman: 

Thomas Lewis: and they announced the invention of the DVD. I could remember us.

Thomas Lewis: Getting a little sneak peek of it. At work. One day …

Josh Naaman: Yeah.

Thomas Lewis: this is This is amazing. Yeah. yeah, CDI

Josh Naaman: Yeah. it’s dead. we got a DVD player to just play some old stuff and…

Thomas Lewis: Yeah.

Josh Naaman: now we rent some kids educational DVDs for my daughter. And at least now we have a DVD player that someone gave it to us and it’s like good we have something that but so many of them it doesn’t even work because they have a little scratch and it’s so inefficient.

Thomas Lewis: Yeah. Yeah.

Josh Naaman: But, that’s the time. but it’s funny because record sales in the music, realm are beating CD-ROMs, which they proceeded CD. And now they’ve surpassed CD once again. So that’s an interesting little there’s I think people Are gaining more of an appreciation for the tactileness of what it is to put on a record. Because, what Spotify and Streaming has done is you click Play on whatever song and you pop around and there’s less of an appreciation for what you’re actually indulging in. When you put on a record,…

Thomas Lewis: Right.

Josh Naaman: it’s very intentional. I’m gonna listen to this whole album I’ll talk about a band and I love this album and this album and I can talk about the progression of songs and stuff like that. They’re like, Whoa, you listen to albums? I’m like,…

Thomas Lewis: Yeah, they’re crazy. Yeah.

Josh Naaman: Yeah, there’s much better songs throughout the album and as a cohesive work body rather than just listening to the one song that’s on the radio, you’re missing out.

Thomas Lewis: Yeah. Yeah, there’s something about the physicality of it accompanying. The music having does the days when we would go to the record store and buy an album. And you had This large thing with photos on it or maybe inserts and all those liner notes and there’s just this amazing physicality to it. It’s just suddenly gone.

Josh Naaman: Totally. Yeah.

Thomas Lewis: Remember that even CDs were kind of a letdown from the vinyl from the album. And then, yeah.

Josh Naaman: The arts not as big so you can’t indulge in it as much as you’re listening and that’s part of the experience is the art.

Thomas Lewis: Yeah. Right.

Josh Naaman: That accompanies it. I’m starting a project with my audio director called Picky Dancer and I’ve already started to create the art and that old company the band name and each song. And the first albums very conceptual and I don’t know, it’s so fun to do that but if you’re just like I don’t know, you could do whatever you want. It’s art. So To each their own. But there’s a lot missing. I think I was in The last band I was in before the starting this project was signed and played. The biggest shows I’ve ever played, but there was so much missing to the process and the disconnect between US musicians and the producers.

Josh Naaman: They recorded it and they kind of called the shots and then we were hired guns. And I was like, there’s so much missing here and the art was awful. The branding was I couldn’t do it as a nurse and I told them, I will design this for free. If you could, just let me do it. It’ll be so much better, but nepotism got in the way there. But yeah, I mean what can you do? But that was an interesting peak into a different realm of music that I hadn’t experience. It was interesting because it was cool. I was playing the bigger shows, like Hard Rock and some of these cool bigger venues around Florida but I was missing so much. I would much rather play smaller shows and be part of the writing and recording process and actually connecting with the music and a full way.

Thomas Lewis: Yeah, it’s interesting to think about photography and music and that’s kind of interest in vinyl. It’s very similar to the big interest and revival of film photography. That’s been happening the last few years and I think there’s something about …

Josh Naaman: 

Thomas Lewis: Putting on a vinyl album and the analog that the scratches the analog quality is very similar, I guess analogous to grain and all the sort of other artifacts that happen, light leaks, and whatever when shooting film that the clean pristine audio that you stream or buy on a CD is comparable to the very clean, crisp images of digital cameras, they become in a way to some people almost too sterile to flawless.

Josh Naaman: Right.

Josh Naaman: 100%.

Thomas Lewis: That they end up lacking quality and character that you’d find in shooting film.

Thomas Lewis: And color is very different as well. So maybe there’s some Similarities there paralleling that’s good. Vinyl

Josh Naaman: I definitely think I think so because now we have also generations who are now starting their journey and as humans they aren’t aware of The tactileness of a CD or an album. Of a film and I think when they experience it there’s this wow factor my gosh it’s one shot and this is what I get or…

Thomas Lewis: Yeah.

Josh Naaman: there’s a wow factor to it. That’s more authentic for me. Another thing that resonated I’m on the hunt for a typewriter. It in their expensive now,…

Thomas Lewis: Yeah.

Josh Naaman: but I’m saving up because on New Year’s Eve. My wife and I and daughter went to this celebration in downtown St. e, Saint Pete’s so cool. I don’t know. Have you been there? you’d love it.

Thomas Lewis: No, no.

Josh Naaman: I have to have you down but there’s a cool festival in any ways. One of the booths because it was an arts festival. And one of the booths is this new business that people popped up and there’s a bunch of typewriters around this booth and essentially you could either go and write yourself a poem. And I had to relearn a typewriter because I’m like how does this thing work again or my wife described some stuff going on in her life and then they wrote a poem for her but I chose to write my own poem and…

Thomas Lewis: Yeah.

Josh Naaman: really enjoyed the process because First off, there was a line in my daughter was there and we had other stuff to do. And so there was a time limit and…

Thomas Lewis: Right.

Josh Naaman: I was like, I’m gonna write a poem and I had to think about a concept execute it, and when I hit the key, there’s no deleting. And so it made me really really intentional and…

Thomas Lewis: Right.

Josh Naaman: I loved that moment because I’m so involved in editing and, whether it be Photoshop or whatever and revisions and stuff like that, and I loved how it was just like,…

Thomas Lewis: Yeah. Yeah.

Josh Naaman: that’s what it is, even having to go back and strike again, because it wasn’t good. And now you have this little ghosted feature of an R,…

Thomas Lewis: Right. Right. Yeah. it’s funny…

Josh Naaman: I love that there’s texture to it.

Thomas Lewis: because they say that, office productivity has gone down since computers have come around because you can make all those changes, whereas, before you typed up the letter and you sent it, right? So it’s the same thing again,…

Josh Naaman: Yeah.

Thomas Lewis: going back to that similarity to filmmaking. You think about how filmmaking has switched over so much to video from film. you can keep shooting take after take. It’s not like you’re running film through a camera, so the film camera you’re like, three takes that’s enough. I’m sure we have it, video, let’s take 19,…

Josh Naaman: Right.

Thomas Lewis: Let’s do another, and maybe in a way films suffered from that, right?

Josh Naaman: Paralysis for Would you you’re just trying to overdo it?

Thomas Lewis: Yeah. Mm-hmm

Josh Naaman: That I can’t remember who told me, but one of my last jobs, before I started Naaman, creative, it was really intense, very fast paced. The fastest pace I’ve ever been involved in at an art group, but it was Good enough is good enough. because you could spend so much time on this piece of art getting it perfect…

Thomas Lewis: Right.

Josh Naaman: but nobody but you is going to even know. So if it’s good enough,…

Thomas Lewis: Yeah. Yes.

Josh Naaman: save next and I’ve carried that through because it’s a love-hate relationship with that business because it was quite toxic, but I learned a lot there, And it leveled me up in many ways on. I’m the only one who’s gonna know this pixel or not, …

Thomas Lewis: Yeah.

Josh Naaman: and if someone notices that pixel, it’s actually a good thing because they’re pairing, so much about my work. They’re involved, that’s cool in a way, they’re seeing mistakes, they’re a fan.

Thomas Lewis: Yeah. That’s to try to instill.

Josh Naaman: I don’t know.

Thomas Lewis: That sort of thinking where you’re like, Okay let it go. The film is never finished, you just kick it out the door, Because you could spend forever think about that. You’re working on a 30 minute film.

Josh Naaman: Uh-huh.

Thomas Lewis: How many frames that is? How many things you could fix within that if you wanted to? But guess what? You’re probably the only one noticing most of them. You just,

Josh Naaman: Yeah, and it has to be done. That’s why deadlines are beautiful. There’s a great quote again I can’t.

Thomas Lewis: Yeah. Yeah.

Josh Naaman: I think I can’t remember who said it, but art is never finished. It’s just abandoned. And that helps me because no matter what it is, if it’s one photo you could work on that photo for the rest of your life. When do you move on,…

Thomas Lewis: Mm- Right. Right.

Josh Naaman: It’s like setting a deadline. Even if it’s arbitrary. Hey, we need to get this out at the beginning of the year, for Picky Dancer, we’re gonna finish five songs and we want it to release at the beginning of the year and that doesn’t matter how good they are. And in fact, we want to rawness to it if it’s not perfect, that’s even better. Yeah. Yeah. Totally.

Thomas Lewis: Yeah. Nothing like a deadline of motivate. That’s good. So that’s what they do. Often in filmmaking right, you set the deadline first and you work backwards from there, Okay, that’s our date.

Josh Naaman: Uh-huh.

Thomas Lewis: This is where we need to be and once you set that date. If that deadline It just changes the whole sort of mental dynamic, in terms of how you’re going to go about what you’re doing. If you’re serious about it,…

Josh Naaman: Certainly. Especially once it starts to market to the masses,…

Thomas Lewis: .

Josh Naaman: then you have to make the deadline and…

Thomas Lewis: Yeah.

Josh Naaman: get it rendered. I learned that hard for your classes especially…

Thomas Lewis: Yeah.

Josh Naaman: because I really had to manage my time because I would produce and then I would be up all night, I would time it because I go. Okay, this is gonna take me three hours to render so I can render take a quick nap for an hour and a half and that master’s program,…

Thomas Lewis: There.

Josh Naaman: taught me how to manage my sleep in it in a funky way, but I liked it. So thanks.

Thomas Lewis: Absolutely it’s funny about here’s a story about deadlines. One of the Harry Potter DVDs we were working on. It had a pretty tight turnaround. And then, all of a sudden there were huge fires because Walmart decided, it had open shelf space. I think It’s been a while now, but I want to say a month sooner. Than what we were planning and all of a sudden we had to take a crazy schedule and amp it up exponentially to try to make an earlier deadline. they eventually went back to the original deadline, but to me, I was just like, Wait a second, how does this work Walmart? Is the one that sets are doing. So it’s like, that whole pipeline is so figured out and so meticulously scheduled It’s their shelf space that determines our workflow.

Josh Naaman: That’s wild.

Thomas Lewis: That was eye-opener.

Thomas Lewis: I had no idea. I figured hey your Warner brothers. You call the shots of when this is coming out but now No,…

Josh Naaman: It is, yeah.

Josh Naaman: And Walmart is probably bigger than Warner Brothers. So,

Thomas Lewis: you hit certain date. Maybe, I don’t know, but I is just like, Wow. So that’s how the world works. Okay, I did not know.

Josh Naaman: And I mean, at the end of the day, the bottom line, like What did they building the films for?

Thomas Lewis: Yeah. Yeah.

Josh Naaman: Not everybody’s in it for the passion and the art.

Thomas Lewis: Other and for the money, it’s a business, So you’re gonna move a huge volume of those things you need to shelf space.

Josh Naaman: Yeah.

Josh Naaman: Yeah. Boy, we’ve dove right in? I’m like haven’t even.

Thomas Lewis: Yeah. sure.

Josh Naaman: I have questions but this is way better. No no,…

Thomas Lewis: Whatever.

Josh Naaman: this is the way I like it. it’s been fantastic. there’s a couple that I definitely want to ask one is because you have so many experiences with lots of different films watching producing and creating I wanted to ask you what the biggest, most impactful, takeaway that you can articulate. I know this is going to be a tough one of you’re combined experiences. whether it be who you’ve met, or their stories, what’s the biggest takeaway from all these experiences in the documentary realm?

Thomas Lewis: so, I would say, so, when I was working for Harry Potter on these DVDs for Warner Brothers, I had one day so I had moved from Orange County, which is south of LA where I had moved back and forth, but I had moved And moved back up to LA and I was working for them. When I got a call asking, if I wanted to teach a class in Orange County at the Orange Coast Community College. And I said yes. So one day a week, I would go down there and that’s a long drive and 405 bumper to bumper traffic, I’d go down there and…

Josh Naaman: Earth.

Thomas Lewis: it was the first class I ever taught, and I loved teaching there.

Thomas Lewis: In it. I knew at that point, I wanted to teach that that was my favorite day. It was even despite the commute to go down there and spend the time with students. And it was just so rewarding. So I knew I wanted to pivot in that direction. And I think one of my big things that I realized was I love the freedom of being able to teach. There’s certainly the flexibility of that schedule but also I can make the films. I want to make there is no bottom line, I’m not answering to anyone in terms of selling my films. I make my personal films. I make from sheer pleasure of being creative and having that outlet and then I make films that they get grants to fund them and stuff but it’s not like okay.

Thomas Lewis: Where’s the shelf at Walmart? Where’s the shelves?

Josh Naaman: Okay. Yeah.

Thomas Lewis: There’s a woman. I don’t have that. I have complete creative freedom to do that, which I really enjoyed and then be able to bring students. On to those projects into those films and work on those films with me and provide those sort of real Opportunities for them to be on sets of various types it’s incredibly rewarding whether it’s narrative or documentary. It’s incredibly rewarding. I think I’m actually attracted to all kinds of filmmaking and So that video projection mapping as it’s called something that is really interested me and I did a

Thomas Lewis: I did a piece back when the Super Bowl was here in Indianapolis in 2012, and I’ve done some subsequent pieces and I find that incredibly rewarding as well. So it doesn’t really matter whether it’s documentary or narrative, or this video mapping type of stuff or other types of emerging video technology like virtual production or 360 degrees stereoscopic video, or seamlessly, branching video, all these different manifestations of the moving image are they’re all fascinating to me and I can explore them from how to then teach them create with them. And I’m never concerned about the world of profit. It’s just about the world of creativity and how great is that?

Josh Naaman: Had get much better than that. From an artist standpoint.

Thomas Lewis: You don’t use it. Absolutely. It doesn’t and I’m not out to even become, a famous artist. It’s not what motivates me. It’s not what pays my bills. it frees up that. Creative space for me. To not have the agenda of whatever earning a living or getting rich or getting famous. Not there. It’s just the pleasure of making things and sharing things. Both the making process with my students, as well as the final product with Whoever with the public,

Josh Naaman: I would say that that’s probably 98% of most artists dream is what you just described where. Man, I wish I could just do the thing that I love without having to worry about the money on the other end of it, and that I could just make and create That’s a beautiful thing.

Thomas Lewis: Yeah. Yeah,…

Josh Naaman: I’m so glad that you’ve achieved that it’s inspiring.

Thomas Lewis: I am There’s just something about that. And whatever, I’m lucky because I have this career teaching and it can support that. So, I’m very fortunate that I got, to that point in my life, where I have that established that affords me. The ability to do this and I appreciate it every single day. And I’m,…

Josh Naaman: Yeah.

Thomas Lewis: I did freelance work for a long time. I did freelance work and

Thomas Lewis: There were good times and there were hard times and they’re stressful times and you have to satisfy a client. And sometimes those clients are And sometimes they’re not easy at all. and…

Josh Naaman: 

Thomas Lewis: it can cause a lot of stress, a lot of anxiety, it’s Easter famine, Sundays is great. My gosh, you’ve got all kinds of things other times, you’re out there marketing yourself, And it’s like, is anybody here? And I know I couldn’t sustain indefinitely that I needed to find something that was more sort of long-term. And of course I love to teaching. So it’s obvious that that’s what it was going to be. so, Yeah. Yeah.

Josh Naaman: Yeah, it seems like that’s just been a great fit, and allowed you to pursue your passion. At the same time, there’s really nothing better than that because you’re feeding two sides of your soul. at the same time and…

Thomas Lewis: Exactly.

Josh Naaman: and that actually leads me to one of my big questions and I like to ask this people like yourself or doing a lot, for me, it’s difficult is how do you find the balance? Because I’ve taught, I know how consuming that can be from right preparing for the class. you were just tell me about prepping for the class…

Thomas Lewis: Yeah. Not.

Josh Naaman: because I’m going to be speaking at one of your classes and Scheduling it out and then getting all of that ready? Then actually showing up to the class answering those questions, your office hours, then grading. But then…

Thomas Lewis: Yeah. Yeah.

Josh Naaman: how do you balance working on the documentaries then?

Thomas Lewis: Right, it could be a lot, but one thing is that you end up teaching a lot of the same courses multiple years. So you end up getting them down. So to speak, …

Josh Naaman: Yeah.

Thomas Lewis: it in and out, what doesn’t work, it’s when you get a new class and you have to develop that class and get it off the ground, which is really a you have to teach it a good three times before you worked out the kinks and you find that. And so luckily you’re doing that so where I work, our lecture faculty which is what I am not 10 year track faculty and I’m teaching faculty means you teach a four, four load, you’re teaching four classes, a semester

Thomas Lewis: As opposed to some.

Josh Naaman: It’s a lot.

Thomas Lewis: So as opposed to research faculty, which are taking teaching, maybe, one class a semester or one and two or something like that, depends on the deal they have. so we do have a heavy teaching responsibility, that is a lot of time and it can be quite difficult to maintain a balance. it’s can be an effort, but you just figure it out, it’s just managing your time management.

Josh Naaman: Yeah. Totally.

Thomas Lewis: And it ends up working. I don’t know that I have any secret advice of how I make it work. A lot of it is just staying motivated, even when you’re sort of worn out and you’re ready to just veg in front of the TV, it’s no okay. Do this stuff for tomorrow.

Josh Naaman: I know you bike. What other methods get energize you like…

Thomas Lewis: Yes. That is…

Josh Naaman: what if you motivated? Okay.

Thomas Lewis: what the primary one. So two two I think I love cycling and I teach a study abroad in Greece. We’ve done it seven times and I rent a bike when I’m there and I bike. As last time,…

Josh Naaman: Mmm.

Thomas Lewis: my bike every single day and it’s very mountainous and it’s just like, I get up at 4:30 and I go out before in the dark and it’s a couple hours and it’s like my meditation. I love it.

Josh Naaman: Sure.

Thomas Lewis: And then I also love going out on little photo expeditions, which can involve a lot of sneaking around in places, you’re not supposed to be, but there’s something quite rewarding and it’s kind of embarrassing to admit as a 60 year old man that I’m out there like doing this guy but there’s something so fun about it, There’s something so fun about being in the quest of some sort of creative accomplishment, like then that It’s often at night at the end of the night. Yeah, it’s done. It’s like, films are a long commitment, they take a long time, you’re in it for the duration, whereas, you can grab a still camera, go out, shoot some things and get that creative, jolt that you need.

Josh Naaman: Yeah.

Thomas Lewis: And it’s done, And I love the immediacy of that. I love that kind of adventure because I’m a sucker for exploring. Places abandoned is whatever.

Josh Naaman: Clearly.

Thomas Lewis: It might be places that are forgotten and especially when I go down south, The South seems to have a lot of those So my family is down in Alabama and to go down there. It’s just seems like way more than you find in Indiana of Just incredible forgotten places down there. So I’d love to, maybe when I retired, do some projects that are more extensive in the South exploring, those kinds of spaces. Photographically maybe, I don’t know, do a book or something like that? And yeah.

Josh Naaman: Math forgotten places is probably a good title for that.

Thomas Lewis: It’s probably already taken.

Josh Naaman: By Thomas Lewis. There you go? definitely taken but

Thomas Lewis: But industrial plate the industrial past of the United States is really fascinating to me, and it’s left so many artifacts here that, the heyday of American manufacturing has passed and yet those artifacts are still here in so many cases. And to me, there’s something incredibly beautiful in them. they just sort of take on a whole other sort of life or significance of their own and this kind of their current state. And I think there’s this part of me that just loves To explore those kinds of spaces. So one of the films that I made called through to corridors and factories. It’s an early collaborative film. With my daughter, we were in Kauai on vacation and my wife at the time was writing her dissertation. So,

Thomas Lewis: My daughter and I had to figure out something to do. So she could concentrate, here we are Hawaii, And she has to work on a dissertation and so we’re like, Let’s go make a film. So we just went off and…

Josh Naaman: Awesome.

Thomas Lewis: made a film and the film that I ended up editing didn’t resemble anything of the concept that we had at the time. But, we’re like, and my daughter is probably 10. Maybe something like that.

Josh Naaman: 

Thomas Lewis: She’s maybe 11. Yeah. And we’re breaking into abandoned sugar mills and we’re just all kinds of things. They’re visually fascinating. Yeah God.

Josh Naaman: what a cool Dad.

Thomas Lewis: Yeah, it was fun. It was fun.

Josh Naaman: Super responsible too.

Thomas Lewis: Yes,…

Thomas Lewis: of course.

Josh Naaman: Is that…

Josh Naaman: has she fallen in love with film because it’s clear from your films you’ve worked with her on quite a few. How special is that?

Thomas Lewis: Yeah, we’ve made a few together and even recently a few years ago, right before the pandemic we made a film together and that’s great. And we used to bike tour together too. And no, it’s a wonderful. So she’s a sort of multidisciplinary artist and who’s involved in choreography and dance and Ceramics, and…

Josh Naaman: Uh-huh.

Thomas Lewis: all kinds of things. and will assist me on occasional video jobs and things like that. So it’s worked out really well. But yeah,…

Josh Naaman: She got the bug.

Thomas Lewis: she’s quite creative. Yes. Yes.

Josh Naaman: It passed down.

Thomas Lewis: It passed out.

Josh Naaman: That’s special though because you’re not only sharing those experiences in the shooting in the creation and the process of it. But then afterwards you have documentation of that collaboration with you and…

Thomas Lewis: Yeah.

Josh Naaman: your daughter a lot of parents I look forward to doing stuff like that. With Nova my daughter whether it be writing a song or something. I can tell she’s got a bug of some kind but New, a lot of people you haven’t experience which is fantastic. You go to the park or you go hiking or you go on a family vacation, you take pictures, which I guess documents it, but having a documentary or a film that you’ve collaborated on.

Thomas Lewis: Yeah.

Josh Naaman: That’s a whole nother level of documenting your history together. you can watch that in 20 years together and go remember when we broke into that sugar mill when you’re 11,…

Thomas Lewis: Yeah. Yeah,…

Josh Naaman: How wild is that?

Thomas Lewis: What are the films was? when in the 70s. So my father was a pilot for United and at one point in the seventies of one of the other airlines was on strike. And one of those pilots was trying to sell land, he became a selling land. and the West was in, my dad was like, we should buy some land from him, that he’s their own strike so they bought this piece of land. In New Mexico that once we lived in New Jersey, they never once visited. So I came up with the idea when I lived in that will go find that land and we’ll make a film about finding that land. So we’ll drive from LA in search of this land that’s in the middle of nowhere and make a film about that process. Which was fun. It was really fun. But also a process of

Thomas Lewis: Reflecting on the landscape in the history and things that we encountered on the way to try to find that land.

Josh Naaman: Yeah. that’s all about the journey. You find the land.

Thomas Lewis: Yeah. Yeah.

Josh Naaman: You’re on the land.

Thomas Lewis: Right. Right.

Josh Naaman: What got you there?

Thomas Lewis: And so, it’s a film called Gotland, which is the name. I saw a real estate, sign for selling land Got Land like the Got Milk campaign. Okay? That’s what we’re gonna call It Got Land. And so,…

Josh Naaman: I’m working on it.

Thomas Lewis: Yeah, I don’t know. There’s something about that film, made it so many years ago, but I still just love it. And yeah, I have that record of my daughter and us the two of us at that age, which is a great thing to have

Josh Naaman: Yeah, that’s priceless. Yeah. your motivating me to I mean my daughter is turning two tomorrow so we still got a little ways but my drum sets over there and she picks up a stick holds it properly and goes around and it’s like hitting the symbols there. And yeah, it’s going she loved walking my guitar and she sits that sat at the piano today and blows into a flute. We just surround her with all sorts of instruments and…

Thomas Lewis: Yeah. That’s fantastic.

Josh Naaman: creative stuff. So just, Yeah, find your way.

Thomas Lewis: But yeah, yeah.

Josh Naaman: We could keep going. I have a segment that every episode we do, it’s called The Rapid Fire.

Thomas Lewis: Okay. All right.

Josh Naaman: Yeah. Sound effects and everything. So yeah,…

Thomas Lewis: Dang, high production value there.

Josh Naaman: this is serious stuff.

Thomas Lewis: Yes.

Josh Naaman: We aren’t kidding around here but obviously you can expand upon stuff but if you can keep it brief…

Thomas Lewis: Okay. …

Josh Naaman: then you win more points essentially. And yeah yeah.

Thomas Lewis: really okay.

Josh Naaman: But it’s whose line so the points don’t matter. Everybody wins. So, you ready? Okay, cool.

Thomas Lewis: Okay, why not sure?

Josh Naaman: What is your biggest source of inspiration?

Thomas Lewis: my God, my biggest source of inspiration.

Thomas Lewis: I have a massive collection of photography books and so I will look through those photography books and sort of put myself in those situations as a photo thinking about the creative solutions that they came up with and maybe why. And yeah, so I do that a lot.

Josh Naaman: That’s fantastic. I love the art books that I have in the design books. They’re so Random and…

Thomas Lewis: you

Josh Naaman: I just open a random page and go look at how they use the line or…

Thomas Lewis: Yeah. …

Josh Naaman: color here, closed back to it.

Thomas Lewis: it’s great. Yeah, yeah and…

Josh Naaman: Love it.

Thomas Lewis: you think about so then when you’re in a similar situation that’s in your head, right? It’s in your unconscious mind to pull from. Yeah.

Josh Naaman: Uh-huh. Totally Yeah. besides those books. What do you have a favorite book?

Thomas Lewis: I do have Not a photo book.

Josh Naaman: Could be a novel.

Josh Naaman: I think one person shows like a technical book one time.

Thomas Lewis: I don’t know that I have a favorite book.

Thomas Lewis: There’s a book. I recently read that. I really enjoyed that. I would recommend called A Gentleman in Moscow by a guy named a More Tolls. I guess is how you say his name, Tio W L E, S maybe and he just came out with A new collection of short stories. He has about three or four novels, but just incredible, beautiful sentences. I love novels that you can really see that you can put yourself in those situations and…

Josh Naaman: Yeah.

Thomas Lewis: one of those books that you just wish it was longer, You don’t put down so gentleman in Moscow I would recommend. Yeah. Yeah.

Josh Naaman: Fantastic. And it to the list. I love that. All…

Thomas Lewis: Now.

Josh Naaman: it was gonna be a tough one. What is your all-time favorite documentary?

Thomas Lewis: Yeah. my students asked me all the time. What is your favorite film? And I don’t know that I have a favorite film. I think of favorite directors. And when I think of favorite directors, it’s funny. Because I think of favorite narrative, directors,

Josh Naaman: Mm-hmm

Thomas Lewis: I don’t necessarily think of favorite documentary directors but I will talk about that in a second. But in terms of narrative films, narrative directors, I had the good fortune when I lived in Philadelphia back in the late 80s. Of going to a screening of all of Kesavetti’s films. So Casa Verdes must have recently. Passed away because it was a I think he died in the late 80s and they had a retrospective there.

Thomas Lewis: and I really lasted, I think all week and I went to the first one and I was hooked and I went every night to this thing and it was just absolutely incredible and to appreciate Cassavetes and his role In the world of I think of him as the godfather of independent filmmaking in this country and the collaboration that he did with his wife. General. And so just passed away last week. At 94, when an amazing amazing actress.

Josh Naaman: .

Thomas Lewis: So Cassavetes would work with her, he would work with Peter Falk, Columbo, he would work with Seymour Cassell.

Josh Naaman: 

Thomas Lewis: So he had his little group of actors that he would act with, and just make the most remarkable films. And again, he didn’t have to worry about how they did, because he paid for most of them himself.

Thomas Lewis: And so, if you don’t know, Casabetes, I would recommend a woman under the influence start there. It’s an intense film with General Rowlands and Peter Falk who plays her husband and wife absolutely. Unbelievable performances, she was incredible horse, in the world of acting. Another director that, I’m a huge fan of is Andre Tarkovsky. So, people ask me students, who asked me? what’s your favorite film? And I think of the closing scene of Andre Rublev one of his major films and I think of that as the greatest scene ever filmed in the history of cinema hands down,

Josh Naaman: all right, noted.

Thomas Lewis: That it is unbelievable. So, a lot of that film and it’s about Russian icon painter in the Middle Ages and a lot of tarkovsky’s films are very poetic. They’re hard to find the narrative thread. They’re very elusive. This one is for a good part of it. it’s more like an impression of the Middle Ages, in that place. But then it kind of hits a more sort of narrative stride there toward the end, the visuals are stunning and by the end, you are just weeping. You cannot believe what you just went through. It is Unbelievable. And I had the good fortune of seeing all of his films At the new art cinema, they were having a week of tarkovsky, so 35 millimeter prints.

Thomas Lewis: it was kind of like the discovery of Cassavetes in Philadelphia. It was a discovery of him tarkovsky there with a good fortune of seeing them all in 35 millimeter prints and just being blown away. just to enjoy the genius of two, very different filmmakers that I can just appreciate equally. My goodness, just absolutely incredible. So any of Tarkovsky’s films? Will.

Josh Naaman: Okay.

Thomas Lewis: 

Thomas Lewis: In terms of documentary, I’m going to come back to things So there’s a film, Michael Moore makes a lot of, Activist filmmaking and he started out with the film Roger and me that at the time I hated it. I thought he was manipulative. He drove me nuts. But I started to watch a lot of his films and I watched one of his films on TV on the airplane and it was called Where to Invade Next. And I started to show that film in my video for Social Change class…

Josh Naaman: Yeah.

Thomas Lewis: because It really opened their eyes to what life is like, in other countries where they’ve managed to get certain things and the reaction with students is just unbelievable. I like somebody turned a light bulb on and they suddenly saw the room around them and they were shocked because it wasn’t like it was described to you.

Josh Naaman: Uh-huh.

Thomas Lewis: And so I think he does an In job very accessible film for students to watch and there’s just something I haven’t seen it now. six times, if it’s a wonderful combination of being entertaining and just really eye-opening and it allows students to imagine a different kind of future so films that it can do that. And you can imagine because here look This is happening in this country and this incredible thing is happening in that country. Hey why can’t that happen here too? And when you start asking those kinds of questions you open up space for possibility.

Josh Naaman: 100%, I watched that for the first time in your video for social change class.

Thomas Lewis: As I showed it.

Josh Naaman: So you’ve probably seen it more than six times.

Thomas Lewis: Yeah. Probably.

Josh Naaman: If the math works. But I remember that stuck with me too. I really like that when you would, plant the flag or whatever and…

Thomas Lewis: Yeah, hated for the flag, right?

Josh Naaman: yeah, it was it that class video for social change stuck with me. It was one of my favorite classes, I think I’ve ever had ever…

Thomas Lewis: 

Josh Naaman: because it mixed learning about media, technology production film, and had the philosophical roots to it all of that driving it, as What is this do for the progression of humanity, How do we relate that? And that is the whole point. In fact, in art, I would argue that a lot of art done, right? Is trying to move the needle to progress to expose grow people’s mindset. That there’s something bigger or something better or something wrong that, we can course correct. And there’s just so much power behind that and so big fan of that class.

Thomas Lewis: Yeah. Yeah, that’s so great to hear. That’s a wonderful to hear.

Josh Naaman: Yeah. yeah.

Thomas Lewis: I showed that a couple years ago. And one of the students came up to me afterwards and he’s like,

Thomas Lewis: Why are you mad? I’ve been lied to my entire life. I can’t believe It’s a lied to think that. What do you mean? I’ve been told that the US is the greatest country in the world. there might be certain things that are great about the US but this whole concept of what’s the greatest country in the world is a little weird,…

Josh Naaman: Sure.

Thomas Lewis: but he was just like, I just saw the eyes opening and it was kind of an amazing thing. Because a lot,…

Josh Naaman: That makes it all worth it. Yeah.

Thomas Lewis: a lot of students have never been outside of Indiana. their local and so to show them something that gives them an outside perspective on the world and this and the way other societies are sort of dealing with their issues. what approach have they taken? That may be radically different than the approach that we take here and we seem to think it’s the only approach.

Josh Naaman: A hundred percent.

Thomas Lewis: it’s the only approach and it’s not, there are other ways to do things.

Josh Naaman: And that’s what, there’s a lot going on right now with Tribalism Where people are rooted in what they believe and think is the way or the truth, or the one way to do it? And I just want to prescribe just a blanket prescription to anybody who hasn’t been outside of the borders of the US to go elsewhere and…

Thomas Lewis: Right.

Josh Naaman: meet people because they’re in experience other cultures in the way that they do things because you’re gonna come back refreshed and maybe a little more humble that maybe I’m wrong or maybe there isn’t one way to do it and that’s changed my life. There’s nothing bigger than you…

Thomas Lewis: Yeah. Travel.

Josh Naaman: that is travel and getting out of my bubble.

Thomas Lewis: Yes, Exactly. I had the very, very good fortune of my parents. When I was younger saying, I have two younger brothers in the middle brother and the oldest that the two of us in my middle brother. Bill you should go to Europe for a year there and they basically sent us off to Europe. That the 1984 send us off to go explore Europe and…

Josh Naaman: Really for a year.

Thomas Lewis: boy what an eye-opening experience that was very, 20 year old kid living in, a development and Ohio. Nothing opens your eyes faster and you start to realize, dang.

Thomas Lewis: I really don’t know a lot about the world. You’d grow?

Josh Naaman: Totally. Yeah.

Thomas Lewis: And you grow fast. Yeah, it’s a wonderful thing. There’s no substitute for it.

Josh Naaman: No, there really isn’t you can’t you have to do it. And that you also nailed on something that like,…

Thomas Lewis: Yeah.

Josh Naaman: for me, when I even like technology or a particular concept or traveling, it’s like the more you realize you do not know.

Thomas Lewis: He?

Josh Naaman: In that I love because there’s so much to explore you were talking about exploring. It’s like even just last weekend we went to a park and that my wife Frequents and I finally made it there with them. And I saw a trail and I’m like, Hey let’s go down that trail. You guys go down that. Probably each time you’re there and she’s like I didn’t even know there was a trail there. And so we explored this trail that went around the whole park and she had no idea it was there and…

Thomas Lewis: Yeah.

Josh Naaman: it was beautiful and Calm and peaceful and there’s something beautiful about that, and it’s just the whole point.

Thomas Lewis: And it’s like getting out and discover and stuff. Nothing better than getting out and…

Josh Naaman: Yeah. Yeah. I knew that that question wouldn’t be rapid so I’m not gonna ding you points for that.

Thomas Lewis: discovering stuff.

Thomas Lewis: Bitching one other narrative film,…

Josh Naaman: You still got A

Thomas Lewis: so you don’t think my narrative. Filmmaking tastes are all art cinema,…

Josh Naaman: yes, men.

Thomas Lewis: world, cinema, I loved definitely the fun documentary that is a undocumented…

Josh Naaman: Yeah.

Thomas Lewis: but there’s narrative film called

Thomas Lewis: So narrative film called Breaking Away that I show in my narrative film class showed for years, right? So it’s 1979 film set in Bloomington, Indiana IU and, I was a fan of this film long before I ever knew I was gonna move to Indiana, and it’s just so much fun and it’s so much fun to show it to students, who are you Indianapolis and don’t know about it because it’s such a great time capsule capturing of Bloomington right in the late 1970s.

Josh Naaman: 

Thomas Lewis: And it’s, of course, a film about cycling. So I love it. But it’s a comedy. It’s one of these heartwarming comedies. It is so funny. It’s the humanity and it is just incredible. I’ve seen it so many times and it’s one of those films I will watch over and over it’s just something about it and this sort of star studied film it’s just beautiful. So

Thomas Lewis: Another film recommendation. I highly different than Casabetes and Andre Turkowski,…

Josh Naaman: Great. Love it.

Thomas Lewis: that’s for sure.

Josh Naaman: In the show notes, we’ll have the list of all these films and directors. So don’t make it easier for myself to look back on as well as the listener.

Thomas Lewis: Yeah.

Josh Naaman: So Thanks if you ever need to recommendation, Thomas, Lewis is the dude, it’s endless like wasteland. I’ve never forgot that film.

Thomas Lewis: My gosh,…

Josh Naaman: I mean That was powerful.

Thomas Lewis: that film isn’t Just incredible film. I saw that here at the Heartland Film Festival. And whatever year that was 2012, maybe. and just Blew me away. Just incredible film. Highly recommend that film.

Josh Naaman: Yeah. Yeah. I mean real quick. Synopsis is that it’s about the world’s largest trash jump dump in Rio de Janeiro,…

Thomas Lewis: .

Josh Naaman: is it?

Thomas Lewis: It’s what is the other city? No, dang and blanket on the name of it. It’ll come to me later but yeah, huge huge,…

Josh Naaman: Sure.

Thomas Lewis: Brazilian city dump.

Josh Naaman: But they work with the trash collectors. And this artist goes there and works with them and then builds art from the trash with them. And I can’t tell you…

Thomas Lewis: Yeah.

Josh Naaman: how many times I went to your class and left with poofy eyes, just crying.

Thomas Lewis: Okay.

Josh Naaman: They’re in it,…

Josh Naaman: you’re exposed in the class…

Thomas Lewis: That’s good.

Thomas Lewis: Gets to you that.

Josh Naaman: but I’m just like weeping.

Thomas Lewis: That film just gets to you the ending. It just kills you. It’s just so amazing. You’re yeah. What he.

Josh Naaman: Yeah.

Thomas Lewis: So that is an amazing example of an artist using their talents to empower a community, and benefit a community, and affect social change in that community through This collaborative art form that he’s come up with where they’re arranging all this recycling on the floor of this warehouse and he’s photographing it from above In a large format photograph. and then Takes it to whatever it was Christie’s, or Sotheby’s in London, with one of the people coming along with them, to give them the proceeds of that sale. I mean, my goodness. It was

Josh Naaman: It’s textbook as far as the combination of art and…

Thomas Lewis: It’s so good.

Josh Naaman: change and impact and empowerment. I mean and making people who watched that cry and feel. Fully.

Thomas Lewis: Yeah. Yeah.

Josh Naaman: I love that. I’ve never forgot it. Yeah.

Thomas Lewis: And the ending where the guy comes on the talk show, just I mean, you could not get a better ending to that film it just like no way.

Josh Naaman: yeah. Yeah.

Josh Naaman: Yeah. Wasteland a big one.

Thomas Lewis: No way it wasteland. That’s Incredible. so,

Josh Naaman: It’s interesting. Hey man, this is the longest rapid fire ever. And I’ve had a lawyer on. I, That’s okay.

Thomas Lewis: sorry about that. I’m not very rapid.

Josh Naaman: It’s just an excuse to ask more questions, honestly. I wonder what your perspective is on this, How powerful and beautiful. And well done In Cinematic, these films are Why don’t they make them to the big screen like Ant-man and Harry Potter? Why aren’t they more mainstream? What’s the disconnect?

Thomas Lewis: so I think That question would have been really, really relevant prior to Michael Moore’s, Fahrenheit when Fahrenheit 9/11 came out about the Bush administration. it sort of opened the possibility for more documentaries making it to the main screen because the theaters were mobbed for that film. I was living in Los Angeles at the time and the line and the traffic to get to see that film was down the block, it was insane.

Josh Naaman: Wow.

Thomas Lewis: It was insane. I’ve never waited in a line that long for a movie. It was incredible. So suddenly because prior to that documentaries, in the theater, were unheard of people, just documentary filmmakers really had a hard time getting an audience and then that opened the possibility for other films. And then, I think, what we have is, we have so many platforms of streaming, but it’s easier for documentaries to find audience and…

Josh Naaman: Yeah.

Thomas Lewis: a streaming platform, then in the theater, but we still get them, in the theater. But of course, it’s all a matter of Audience Interest. What is the level of audience and audience interest? how many people are going to show up to buy tickets so it comes down to but,

Josh Naaman: Yeah. That’s health space at Walmart.

Thomas Lewis: Much more. I think we’re kind of been in the golden age of documentary for the last few years. Of interest in funding them…

Josh Naaman: Mm-hmm

Thomas Lewis: because they can find audiences. It might not be, the big crazy audiences of, are various action films or,

Thomas Lewis: Things, cartoony films, all these films, like Pixar films, or whatever, they’re getting so much attention over the years,…

Josh Naaman: Yeah.

Thomas Lewis: but still, they find their niche audience and it’s enough to keep it going. So I think a lot of people. they consider it the Golden Age now, of Documentary,

Josh Naaman: Also there they’re doing them really well. Also the documentary series where now they’re TV shows where you can and…

Thomas Lewis: Right. Right.

Josh Naaman: just like TV shows a blasted off into space. I think, I enjoy watching TV shows more than films because I get that all this time to build the character and…

Thomas Lewis: Yeah.

Josh Naaman: the story and it’s always left at a suspense at the end of these shows and there’s just more time to build all that stuff. But I think also one thing so luckily streaming has empowered documentaries, but there’s still the marketing behind it, I’m thinking from my marketing lens, I don’t, and obviously it’s the budgets of everything.

Josh Naaman: It dictate what happens, whether it be self- independently, produced under a label of some kind but even if you’re under a label the comparison of the marketing dollars spend from. So the 40th Spider-Man version versus this documentary, the Spider-Man is gonna get 1,000 times more marketing dollars,…

Thomas Lewis: Yeah. Yeah.

Josh Naaman: I really feel like. Also that disconnect is that if you could market it a little better, some of these unbelievably changing documentaries, that might keep enough people and then there’s this runway effect where those people tell those people. So, I think also that maybe there’s a lack of marketing because they have a limited funds in those funds are directly just to produce the thing. And release it and get it released. Whereas, a Spider-Man, the budget consists hugely of the marketing, as well as the production of it.

Thomas Lewis: Because you have a big studio behind it, A lot of documentaries don’t have a big studio behind them.

Josh Naaman: Yeah.

Thomas Lewis: They’re funded by individuals…

Josh Naaman: Yeah.

Thomas Lewis: who want to do it maybe they hope to make their money back but some people just want the films made so they pay And fund films, and they’re a lot cheaper to make than those films. anything about the narrative films,…

Josh Naaman: yeah.

Thomas Lewis: they’re dropping a hundred million dollars on a film like that at least and then they want to make their money back, whereas the risk for documentary, not quite so big. So it doesn’t hesitate the same sort of marketing push to recoup hundreds of millions of dollars.

Josh Naaman: Yeah.

Thomas Lewis: But yeah, but I think, streaming and it’s just ridiculous how many different streaming platforms there are, but it really does. Afford. An odd access to an audience. never before.

Josh Naaman: That’s fantastic.

Thomas Lewis: So that’s

Josh Naaman: Same with music and art in general. the cool thing is that You could make something and share it with the world tomorrow. It’s just now you’re competing with a lot more.

Thomas Lewis: Right.

Josh Naaman: Noise. So…

Josh Naaman: how do you break through that noise? So it’s double edge…

Thomas Lewis: Right. Exactly.

Thomas Lewis: Yeah. Right.

Josh Naaman: because it’s fantastic and in powering, but also now you’re up against The million times more people doing it.

Thomas Lewis: Yeah, which goes hand and glove of the fact that, production equipment, the costs and the costs have come down, the quality is going up. It’s accessible to so many people now that everybody’s a filmmaker, I remember or everyone’s a musician. I remember back, in the late 80s. Everyone was a desktop publisher, Everyone was a graphic designer every because, suddenly that technology was accessible, we’re in a way it hadn’t been before. So now you have these, access to these cameras. That just a few years ago we’re over a hundred thousand dollars and I can go out and buy for a few thousand dollars and have this quality that’s just astounding.

Josh Naaman: I mean, you could get roll on your new iPhone and…

Thomas Lewis: That’s something more.

Josh Naaman: and it would pass.

Thomas Lewis: Yeah. Yeah exactly. And so yeah it can enable a lot of people to put a lot of things out there. So

Thomas Lewis: And it seems like the sort of eye-catching form has become shorter and shorter, right? It’s for social media these things that last 10 seconds. So, my concern is, I social I teach long form video making, how to tell a story. Whatever it is narrative or documentary, by belong form. I’m talking 20 minutes. I’m Not Talking, Feature Link, We don’t have the luxury to teach students, how to make Feature-link films and our classes. But it’s funny to refer to 20 minutes as long form but comparing it to social media Where things are, Just a few seconds long.

Josh Naaman: That’s a lifetime.

Thomas Lewis: It seems that forever.

Thomas Lewis: Yeah. What? Yeah. Yeah.

Josh Naaman: Also work on a 20 minute film.

Josh Naaman: See how long it takes you? I always think of the example, I don’t know if you’ve watched Parks and Recreation the TV show, where the accountant,…

Thomas Lewis: A little bit? Yeah, a little bit.

Josh Naaman: he loses his job and he’s trying to figure out what is next move is. And so he does a little claymation animation and he plays it for his wife and he’s like, I’ve been working on this all week. I can’t wait to show you any presses play. It’s like Do you and the guy stands up and then it goes black and he’s like something went wrong. Let me play it again. Do you do? And he’s like, my God, are you kidding me? It took me a week to do that second. And it was just perfect is perfect because I’m like, yeah.

Thomas Lewis: It’s my gosh. I can’t believe people who do stop-motion animation, that’s a whole other thing.

Josh Naaman: It’s wild like Coraline and…

Thomas Lewis: You didn’t incredible.

Josh Naaman: that level of stuff.

Thomas Lewis: Yeah, yeah.

Josh Naaman: My goodness.

Thomas Lewis: Let’s hang around it.

Josh Naaman: Yeah, I yeah.

Thomas Lewis: The incredible incredible.

Josh Naaman: I have mad respect. Talk about patience.

Thomas Lewis: Yeah, yeah. For real. Yes.

Josh Naaman: And attention to detail. Actually, okay.

Thomas Lewis: Yep.

Josh Naaman: We’re gonna finish this rapid fire. If It’s just real quick,…

Thomas Lewis: there’s more. Okay, okay.

Josh Naaman: these will be quicker favorite musical, artist or album.

Thomas Lewis: I’ll admit I’m a die-hard Springsteen fan can’t help it grew up in New Jersey in the early 70s so I’m in Cincinnati here, this spring. I’ve seen him in Louisville and I admit it, …

Josh Naaman: That’s okay,…

Thomas Lewis: kind of look like he’s got me through some tough times.

Josh Naaman: that’s acceptable. Great.

Thomas Lewis: Just incredible, incredible. I mean you find anything about life in his work. And it’s just,…

Josh Naaman: Uh-huh.

Thomas Lewis: it’s just sort of to me just an amazing engagement and reflection on life in America. from a real. Sort of blue-collar perspective. There’s just stuff in it that just resonates with me. So much much more than maybe anyone else, maybe Dylan is up there too, but

Thomas Lewis: Springsteen for me Does it for me?

Josh Naaman: Love it, itches, that scratch. All two more.

Thomas Lewis: Okay.

Josh Naaman: 

Josh Naaman: You could spend one day with someone dead or alive. Who is it?

Thomas Lewis: My, maybe I should just Dang, that’s a hard question. Dead or…

Josh Naaman: I know.

Thomas Lewis: alive one day. Mmm.

Thomas Lewis: It had to be someone I could relate to so the easy answer is just to say Springsteen again,…

Josh Naaman: There you…

Thomas Lewis: but You can somebody else that all of humanity is a lot to choose from,…

Josh Naaman: That’s okay. It’s acceptable. It’s

Thomas Lewis: they kind of cool to hang out with Martin Scorsese. Yeah, he just said,…

Josh Naaman: Yeah.

Thomas Lewis: just a filmmaker with such a long history of incredible films. Better to Nero or…

Josh Naaman: Yeah.

Thomas Lewis: maybe together DeNiro is my favorite actor for so many years. Thought he was so incredible. So, Yeah, we’ll go with Scorsese. See what I can learn about things from score.

Josh Naaman: Cool. yeah,…

Thomas Lewis: …

Josh Naaman: yeah, I love that.

Thomas Lewis: I think he thinks about filmmaking a lot, right? It really does. He reflects on it quite a bit? He’s hugely knowledgeable.

Josh Naaman: That day would become very short. Feel like it fly.

Thomas Lewis: Yeah, thing. Yes.

Josh Naaman: All right, last one. How do you just…

Thomas Lewis: Okay.

Josh Naaman: how do you define success?

Thomas Lewis: How do you find a success? I think right now in my opinion I have found success and I know that I know and…

Josh Naaman: No. Define it. okay.

Thomas Lewis: I think what it is is what we’re like the happiness that comes with finding yourself and putting yourself in that situation in your career where you have to express your creativity, the ability to affect other people, and to also have yourself surrounded by the love of family. so, those personal interactions with those people in your lives, in your life who

Thomas Lewis: You get back what you give, And then having that love and support that you get from the people around you. that helps fuel your creativity that fuels your passion. So I think one of the most important things to happiness, Is finding that thing that gives your life Whatever it is going to give your life meaning I can’t imagine, I think, It goes so far as to say, I think happiness is impossible. If you do not find expressing yourself in whatever it is music or…

Josh Naaman: Yeah.

Thomas Lewis: writing or drawing a painting, whatever filmmaking whatever it is and that is that thing that you allow to consume you, you find all the creative possibilities in it, that can consume you and you can create this sort of rich world within that space and that

Thomas Lewis: you find purpose in that you find meaning in that. And so the creativity is one thing, it could be something else, it could be helping people, it could be serving, it could be volunteering for things. It can be whatever the passion is that you have That is just a guaranteed way to bring you happiness. And by happiness, you found success. Yeah. Yeah.

Josh Naaman: Couldn’t have said it better myself. That I like asking these questions especially that last one because a lot of people, there’s a similar thread there of happiness, and I love hearing the different perspective on it, but everybody starts to get That last point, most people. Yeah.

Thomas Lewis: Yeah, yeah. I think, Yeah, the happiness is so important. and I’m talking about sustained, happiness, right? The kind of thing…

Josh Naaman: Right.

Thomas Lewis: where it’s not, just a fleeting always happy today, that’s awesome. No. But it’s like some of the sort of sustained happiness. Is this thing that gives you a sense of positivity and that you go out in the world with that and to go out in the world with your positivity affects other people. And it’s an important thing. I mean, what’s the alternative being miserable and being snarky and throw? And just, bringing negativity in the world? Why would you undo that?

Josh Naaman: What are you doing? Yeah. I don’t know.

Thomas Lewis: Why would you want to do that? get away from that. and find that part of yourself, that can find that purpose and that meaning. And you’ll be on track to find that happiness.

Josh Naaman: Love it. Usually I ask to wind down after rapid fire,…

Thomas Lewis: Yeah.

Josh Naaman: by the way, you’ve won. congratulations. You’re get your trophy in the mail.

Thomas Lewis: Because I was the longest, it’s

Josh Naaman: You’ve won the longest rapid fire in Naaman, Creative Show, history. no but I usually ask to wind down a couple questions and what is one of the biggest pieces of advice you could give someone no matter who they’re listening and I feel like that last bit Was perfect for that.

Thomas Lewis: Yeah.

Josh Naaman: I mean, Sustained happiness.

Thomas Lewis: yeah.

Josh Naaman: It’s more specific. The person who’s gonna edit this, my audio director Jordan he was on the show with his band a long time, a bit ago, not a long time ago. Anyways he had one word it was just like because I went around all the members And How do you define success? Here’s just happiness, boom. But I love how you specified it towards the end. There that is sustained. And how do you sustain that happiness? where it’s at? I think. As a human’s interacting with other people. If more people can find that sustained happiness, we’d be in a much better position. Collectively.

Thomas Lewis: Right. Yeah,…

Josh Naaman: Getting away from that negativity,…

Thomas Lewis: yeah. agree.

Josh Naaman: like you were saying, but sometimes it’s hard because it draws people in, and there’s so much to engage with nowadays in those negative pockets, whatever it may…

Thomas Lewis: Yeah. Yeah.

Josh Naaman: because you can find something in anything.

Thomas Lewis: Right, right? And I think there are a lot of things that contribute to the happiness, since the happiness, Is that, you’re satisfied, with, whatever your day job is right and you have managed to be Lucky in finding love. I think that has a lot to do with it. Is you found that other person. who sustains that in you, and that’s a huge part of it but also just having

Thomas Lewis: Having the security of, a roof of your head and food on the table, these things that far too many people in this country do not have. They live in an insecure situation, whatever it might be paycheck to paycheck or other an abusive situations or they’re in a, unstable sort of housing situation or job situation and all these things are limiting. Those people in their ability to find happiness because they’re dealing with this real s*** of having to, survive and it really are in the richest country in the world.

Josh Naaman: Yeah.

Thomas Lewis: And we shouldn’t have people who are just trying to freaking survive. It’s sad.

Josh Naaman: It’s wild.

Thomas Lewis: And it’s unfortunate, and it doesn’t have to be that way, because I think when you find happiness, you want everyone to be happy. everybody should be happy. Absolutely everybody,…

Josh Naaman: Yeah.

Thomas Lewis: nobody has

Thomas Lewis: You are doomed to being unhappy and that’s just situation. Now everybody should we have the right to pursue happiness in this country, right? and…

Josh Naaman: Yeah, that’s a very real thing.

Thomas Lewis: so yes and so I think the more people can put toward everybody’s happiness, the better off will be as a country and as a society,

Josh Naaman: Boy.

Thomas Lewis: Sorry, I’m not so bugs.

Josh Naaman: No, no, I figured and I wanted that. So, I mean, that’s wonderful. I don’t know where else to leave. I think that’s a fantastic way to leave this.

Thomas Lewis: Yeah, sure.

Thomas Lewis: We can leave it right there. Yeah.

Josh Naaman: Yeah, yeah,…

Josh Naaman: I appreciate you very much. I will make sure in the show notes to also leave a link where people can access the films that you’ve produced. I’ll get that from you and…

Thomas Lewis: Yeah.

Josh Naaman: and maybe a way to connect with you if someone wants to but specially your films.

Thomas Lewis: I’d appreciate that. That’s great. Yeah, and I can send you a link. I have a blog that I need to fire up again about a lot of the things that done I have one of those link tree links that has a link to a lot of the different projects that I’ve worked on and things. So I love people to watch these films.

Josh Naaman: Perfect.

Thomas Lewis: I mean, it’s nice to get Some small audience for someone at work. That’s been done. That’s out there. Yeah, so that would be great.

Josh Naaman: Absolutely.

Josh Naaman: I’ll make it happen and we’ll push it a little forward with whoever is listening to this and…

Thomas Lewis: Now.

Josh Naaman: I appreciate your time. It’s been so cool catching up with you and…

Thomas Lewis: Yeah, great.

Josh Naaman: I look forward to more and a lot. So I appreciate

Thomas Lewis: Absolutely will thank you for having me on, I appreciate it. And you’re gonna be visiting this foundation’s class. So it’s A lot of them might be first generation college students and…

Josh Naaman: love it.

Thomas Lewis: they’re gonna get to hear from different professionals about…

Josh Naaman: Cool.

Thomas Lewis: what they do and you’re gonna be there in a few weeks and I appreciate you doing that. That’ll be great, they’ll love it. You have tons to share that.

Josh Naaman: yeah.

Thomas Lewis: They’ll Learn from so that’ll be exciting. Yeah.

Josh Naaman: I look forward to it and it’s not an honor being invited on that so I’m glad we can reciprocate with this…

Thomas Lewis: Yeah.

Josh Naaman: but I’ll try to wake him up. Or give them some seeds plant,…

Thomas Lewis: Perfect. Yeah.

Josh Naaman: a little of seed or two.

Thomas Lewis: There you go.

Josh Naaman: Okay, thanks again, Thomas. it means a lot to have you on.

Thomas Lewis: Good.

Josh Naaman: and it’s been great.

Thomas Lewis: Absolutely my pleasure. A lot of fun, okay? All right.