33: How to Change the World by Changing Yourself (w/ Dr. Doral Pulley)

All right, Dr. Darrell Pulley here. Yes. Glad to be here. Thank you so much.

So much for taking time. I don’t know we’re going to get into this. I don’t know how you manage to juggle your tasks and all the things that you do, but I appreciate you giving me, you know, part of your day to talk to me and talk to whoever’s going to be listening to this.

I’ve had the pleasure of getting to know you through Sun Leaders. Carol Hasbrouck, our shared friend, invited you to Sun Leaders, and immediately it was like an immediate connection. It was a hit.

And so. So shout out to Carol for bringing you. Hey, Carol.

Yeah, Carol. She was just sitting in this chair a couple hours ago recording her podcast on the SunLeaders Podcast. You’re a host now of the SunLeaders Podcast, and you have your own episodes, which is awesome to be able to collaborate with you on.

Those are incredible podcast episodes and super juicy as far as the substance that are in those. Thank think you. And so I recommend anybody to go to sunleaderspodcast.com and check out Dr. Pulley’s episodes there.

But I’ll give you a little background on who Dr. Pulley is, and then we’ll. We’ll dive in because this will maybe set the stage because you’re super interesting in doing so much. Number one that usually, like, for me, captivated me quickly, is you were preaching at age 7 and you were then a registered official minister at age 12.

Absolutely. That’s wild. And that says a lot right there.

I think that alone, we could then just get going. But I wanted to kind of say you’ve been highly involved. From what I gather, I’m kind of like, putting it in a nutshell.

Engaged and involved in education and growth and helping others. Absolutely. I feel like that’s what I gather from seeing what you’re doing.

And I love that you started Today’s church in 2017 in Tampa, and then another two years later, you created another location in St. Pete in 2019. Yes. And we just started our Clearwater location two weeks ago.

No way. Yes. So we got a study group going in Clearwater.

Congratulations. Thank you. It was just growing.

Yeah. And I think. And we’ll discover why.

I know why is because your personality, your drive, the way that you go about yourself is inspirational and therefore captivating. And so I feel like people like to be around you because it’s pleasant and they feel empowered and uplifted, and that’s what it’s all about. That’s the goal right that’s the goal.

And let’s see, you’re also a licensed counselor. Yeah. Which is fantastic.

And you’re a published author. Many times. Yes.

So you have a passion to speak, to write and teach all very powerful things. All things that I very much connect with you on because I think that’s more important than ever. Whatever you’re talking about, getting information out there and uplifting people in whatever context that is, is what the world needs.

Absolutely. Instead of bringing people down or keeping information away or whatever that may be, there’s, that’s the path. And so overall you’re, you’re, from what I’ve gathered and experienced, you’re extremely inspiring and motivating.

And I think people will gather that as we, we dive in. One thing that stood out to me when I was reading through your website is there’s a, there’s a quote there on who you were. It was like I am statements.

A lot of I am and which, you know, said who you were and at near the bottom. And I. And I’m going to end here, I promise. You had put I am a positive people developer who lives a holistically healthy, balanced and well rounded life.

And I love that. And I feel mantra, I love it. I feel like, I feel like that’s.

That you’re living that. You’re absolutely living that. So.

And maybe before we get ahead of ourselves, maybe you could help us set the stage for where you are now and what you’re doing and all these things that you’ve done is what got you started. Preaching at age 7 and being a minister at age 12. How does that even happen? Well, I did not see a bright light.

I did not hear a voice from heaven. I grew up in Baltimore, Maryland. And in Baltimore during my growing up, I grew up in the Pentecostal Charismatic Church.

And we had something every second Sunday in June called Children’s Day. It was almost like a second Easter. And the children would dress up in white and we led the whole service, the singing, the reading, the preaching, we did the whole service.

And because we didn’t have any young ministers in our congregation, our youth leader, Elder Lynn, at the time, she hired a speaker to be the speaker for the youth service. And we were practicing our parts on Saturday night and she got a phone call. It wasn’t the time of cell phones and emails.

She got a phone call at the church. Recorded phone. Yeah, the cord and the dial.

And she went to get the phone call and she came back and she had this distressed look on her face. And I’M like, elderlyn, what’s wrong? She was like, I don’t know what I’m gonna do. Our speaker is not gonna be able to make it.

He had an emergency. I don’t know what I’m gonna do. She said, well, maybe you all could do different things.

And she’s trying to come up with something on the fly to kind of fill up the time or whatever. And she was just so flustered. I said, elder Lynn, I’ll preach.

She said, really stepping up at that age? Yes. I had no clue what I was getting myself into. And it wasn’t even about, like, some higher calling as much as it was to help ease her of the distress that she was in about trying to figure out what to do.

I just want her to be happy and for the rehearsal to continue. So let’s move on. I’ll do it.

Wow. You were stepping up at that age. Yes.

I mean, I feel like that says a lot about you. Right there is, you know, whether it be your upbringing or how, you know, composed yourself and started to see the world that you needed to take action. And you, you seem like an action oriented dude.

Very much an action oriented person. And so my parents were not religious. I didn’t grow up in a religious family.

Okay. My parents were very much into what they called at that time weed. You know, they would smoke weed and drink.

They still call it that. They called it marijuana. Reefer.

Reefer, yeah. And so my parents were very much party kind of people and not really into church. But my aunt was an evangelist and she was into church.

And so if I wanted, which was completely my choice, if I wanted to go to church, then I could go with Auntie Ann. And so I loved church as a child. I just loved church.

I felt most at home at church, even when I was naughty. The way I got punished. Punished was, you can’t go to church.

Oh, wow. That was like a punishment for me not to be able to go to church. And so I told my aunt, I said, well, I’m gonna preach tomorrow.

She said, you’re gonna do what? I said, I’m gonna preach tomorrow. They didn’t have a preacher. She says, what are you gonna say? I said, I don’t know.

She said, well, let me help you. So we kind of put together a sermon that night. And it was.

Do you remember what you talked about? Yes, I do remember. It was Jesus’s parable about the prodigal son. That a man had two sons, and one was good, doing all the right things.

Another kind of Went off in his own way and smoked weed, reefers, sorry. And then he came back and, you know, it was that whole story about Are youe Lost? And that was my first message that I spoke about. Are youe Lost? And it was just like this spirit came over me while I was preaching, like, whoosh.

And all of a sudden I wasn’t this seven year old little boy speaking because I was so short, I had to stand on a milk crate. You’re tall now. For everybody listening, you were on a milk crate.

That’s the key. I was in a milk crate and I was shaking. You know, I was so nervous.

But then it’s like this, this spirit, almost like a wind, just kind of like whoosh came over me. And I wasn’t nervous anymore. I wasn’t afraid anymore.

And I wasn’t, you know, stuttering with my words. I was just speaking like a person that speaks. And immediately after the service was over, because we had a lot of guests, they were like, well, can you come preach at my church? Can you come preach at my church? So I left that experience with like 13 or 14 engagements at age 7 at different places.

And I was like, whoa. You know, I wasn’t really expecting all of that. So you had the gift.

I mean, that’s incredible. Where do I start? So number one, I was thinking while you’re talking, I guarantee I, I don’t know how big the, the congregation was at the time. How many people were in there? Probably about two or three hundred people.

Holy moly. Okay. No pun intended.

I guarantee that those days of the children taking over the service and like your, what you talked about resonated so much deeper than adults talking. I feel like there’s something absolutely special to hear the freshness. You know, I have two young daughters now and to see my two and a half year old and see the world through her eyes and experience what she’s focused on, there’s this purity and it’s untainted and it’s beautiful and, and I feel like that’s probably what people appreciated about

that.

It’s, it’s ironic because you were talking about being lost, yet you’re seven. You know, like you lost like maybe in a mall or in the grocery store. Other people are lost.

Lost. Smoking way too much reefers or whatever. Sorry, this is going to be a thread throughout, but I just, I think that’s so amazing and cool and I, and I just imagine being in the, in the congregation, you know, and laser focused.

You know, I grew up in a Catholic church. I Was an altar boy till eighth grade. And so four times a week in the morning I was in church.

Wow. And sometimes it was grueling because it felt dry. There was a dryness to it that I couldn’t quite connect with.

But I feel like if there was a seven year old up there, like, talking from the heart, I would have absolutely connected with that. Absolutely. You know, and so that’s captivating in a way.

And not everything was dry. There were certain things where it’s like, oh, that was a good sermon, you know, But I don’t know, I felt like some, some people got on autopilot and there’s this cadence that kind of became noise. It came routine.

There’s just these things that you did and then you felt good and then you went on with your day and. And it was hard to, to, to gravitate towards that too much. Now they have like big bands playing.

Yeah. You know, I mean, big different time. Yeah.

And it’s. And that’s cool. That’s cool.

Real quick with the, the denomination that you were at at that time. What, what, what did, what did you start in? It was a Pentecostal holiness Charismatic type of Ch. Run and jump and shout and dance and speak in tongues and oh boy, fall out and throw sheets on people.

It was, it was lit and it was live. Geez. Yeah.

Running around again from the Catholic Church. If you were like running in church, you’d be, they’re calling for the men with the white coats. Put you in the rubber room.

Yeah. Oh my gosh. Wow.

Speaking in tongues. That’s. Have you ever experienced that? Oh, my God, Yes.

I do it every day. Really? Yeah. What.

What is that like? It’s like chanting. It’s like getting out of your head and just totally connecting with spirit. Some people do transcendental meditation.

They have a word that they repeat over and over again. Some Buddhists have like a mantra, Nam. Yay, Reiko.

And they say that. So it’s kind of the same thing. It gets you out of your head and more into your heart space.

And you just allow that spirit to flow through you. It’s like a prayer language. It’s a way to pray when I don’t know what to say in English or I need clarity and direction on what to say or what to do or decision that needs to be made.

It’s a way that I can pray where I’m directly connecting with spirit and there’s nothing blocking that. Interesting. I’ve never really heard anybody explain the backstory of it or the Root of the reasoning.

And it’s interesting that to gain clarity. You mentioned. In order to gain clarity, you’re intentionally unclear.

Yes. There’s something so interesting there. I think as a, you know, an artist or a musician jamming.

Yeah. And working through something or sketching. I have no idea what this blank page is going to be or what we’re putting on tape right now to record, but let’s just jam through it.

Yeah. I feel like it’s kind of riffin and you’re. And you’re sorting through it.

So maybe that’s. Is that. It’s very, very.

That resonates so deeply with me that it’s really just flowing. Yeah. You know, and it just allows you to tap into that creativity.

It allows you to get that clarity and that oneness with all that is. And I’m always so peaceful after. And I’m always so clear.

I know exactly what to do. It’s hard to imagine you and all of our engagements not being peaceful, but I can see that. Yeah.

It’s kind of like you’ve, like, refreshed yourself. You know, there’s always a piece after a jam session, even if it’s not like, oh, that was just great. That’s a.

That’s a song that we’re. But it feels good to get it out. Yeah.

Just to let it out. Yeah. Oh, gosh.

Okay. I appreciate you putting it into a different light because what light did you heard it in? Well, I’ve seen it in different ways, like in a documentary or something. I’ve never actually.

Gotcha. Seen someone do it in person. Again.

Catholic churches, I don’t think do that, at least the one I was at. And so I’ve kind of seen it and there’s more of it. There’s a perf.

I’ve seen it as a. More of a performative thing. I think that’s the light that maybe has been framed in it.

And I’m sure some people do utilize it in. You know, because you see all aspects of any realm, whether it be religion or not, in performing to get a response. Gotcha.

And I think that’s probably the context that I’ve seen it. I try not to do it much in public spaces because I think if I start and if I do that, you’re like, oh, what in the heck is he saying here? Keep our distance from him, kids. So it’s like I don’t find it as helpful or meaningful if it’s in a public setting where people.

A mixed setting where people don’t really Understand what you’re doing. I think that creates more confusion and angst. Yeah.

As opposed to calm and joy and peace. I think it’s actually the opposite. That creates confusion.

Yeah, absolutely. Because I have no idea what you’re saying. Right.

What am I to do with that? And so that’s interesting because I’ve always seen it on a stage or done in public, but this is something that’s more internal and private for you as a. As a technique or a tool. Again, I’ve never learned about that enough to know that that’s a method.

That’s what it’s become for me now. When I grew up in church, it was pretty much like what you saw. Okay.

You know, on TV and in different spaces. And so my goal is, wherever I’ve been, whatever I’ve done, to take the lesson from it and the blessing from it. And how can I use this for good? How can this be positively integrated in my life? And so that’s what I took from that because I very much resonated with it as a child.

And so as I grew up and I saw the contention and confusion, it’s like, I like this, but how can I use this in a positive way that’s uplifting and that’s clarity? And so that’s what it has become for me. That’s so neat. Boy, there’s.

There’s so much there on taking an experience that you’ve had and extracting the lesson or the positive. There’s things in my wife and I’s life where we go, man, there’s a whole lot of negative in this thing that we are engaging or have to engage in at this moment, or we’re surrounded by. In physical space where you can’t escape because of particular things.

And it’s like, how do we deal with this? And, you know, we’ve been kind of trying to recalibrate as, okay, well, we’re learning from this, or we’re growing from this. To be more patient, to be more understanding of why this person is doing that and not reacting, which is the toughest thing not to do because our gut is to react. Yes.

And so, I mean, your approach to things, and it sounds like it started to happen early on, is unbelievably matured, you know, for. For that age, too. And obviously you’ve, I’m sure, refine that quite a bit and learned a lot over time, but it sounds like you’re very mature at a young age.

What do you think caused that? Or what was it? I believe in reincarnation. I think people come back several times in several ways until we reach this perfection. Then we don’t have to come back anymore.

But I believe that people come back to do their soul’s work if it was not all done in one lifetime. And then I also believe that within a particular lifetime there can be several lifetimes, several books and chapters of our lives that open and close and we recreate and reinvent ourselves as well. Some more of a both and kind of person as opposed to an either or.

So I believe in reincarnation. I also believe in reincarnating within this lifetime as well. Like my life now is very different than it was 10 years ago.

Sure. So I believe I came with some things. Yeah.

Like an old soul almost. Yeah. You’re prepped.

Yes, I believe, very much believe that. Well, number one, I wonder if this is your last journey, like you’re nailing it on this round. I don’t know.

We’ll see. I mean, I don’t know from this end. You’re doing great.

And then I’m wondering in within the religious context of the Pentecostal Church, or maybe today’s church is different, I’m wondering how your belief in reincarnation aligns with, you know, biblical teaching or if, if, if that. Because I’m trying to recall if reincarnation is part of that or if this is kind of something that you have gathered from those teachings and concluded. Yeah, it’s like today’s church is an all accepting, Bible based, we’re very much Bible based, Christ centered,

metaphysical church.

So we’re looking at the Bible as our base, but we’re not looking at it as just literature because I went to seminary and college and you know, my professors very much saw it as literature. And so there was a lot of literary criticisms and finding the errors and inconsistencies in the Bible. And so I’m familiar with that.

Then I grew up in, as I said, a Pentecostal church where they looked at the Bible very literally and, and try to pretty much live their lives literally by the Bible. And people had various degrees of success with that. That’s a tough ask.

Yes. Especially this day and time. And so now I still use the Bible, it’s my primary text, but I look at it through the lens of life application.

Like when I’m looking at this story, when I’m looking at this verse, what can I take from it to make me a better person so that I can live a better life? Not whether it happened or didn’t happen or whether it’s true or false, because then that puts me back in the college mode of literary criticism and not trying to be literal with it, because I think it loses a lot when you’re trying to be literal. But I look at the Bible from the place of life application. What can I do with it now to incorporate

it in my life? And that’s, you know, so we were talking about incarnation.

So the incarnation is certainly there, but a lot of people don’t see it because Jesus, they thought that he may have been Elijah reincarnated or Jeremiah reincarnated or one of the prophets. So it was very much a part of that thinking. But most people don’t look at it for deeper meaning.

They just see the surface of it. So I’m metaphysical, so I want to go beyond the surface and get a deeper meaning for life application. Very cool.

So you’re. You’ve almost created your own denomination. Denomination, yeah.

Yeah. Because that’s. It’s a very specific take on it.

But it seems like, I mean, for the instance of a talking snake, you know, I think even the writers were using it as metaphor. And so it’s hard to take that literal. And.

And certainly it’s easy to critique that and go, well, there aren’t talking snakes, so this is interesting. And you could just go that rabbit hole and. And be.

And then the apologetics of that become very nuanced and difficult to navigate. Right. But you’re taking it and saying, how can we apply this, using it as a base, and then discuss it and extract from it and utilize it in this real world that we have to navigate and grow.

Right. So what are the. The voices that are talking to me, what are the talking snakes.

Right. That are giving me different opinions and how do I interact with the different voices that are giving me different messages? So I would kind of take the text from that standpoint, as opposed to whether or not it was really a talking snake or it was a talking snake, but more so metaphorically, who’s talking to me? Who am I listening to? What are the messages that I’m taking in and what do I do with those messages is how I’m going to approach that text. And are these kind of principles that

you’re talking about, are these the things that you lead your congregation, if you will, in.

Absolutely. So practical application of this base text and our interpretation of it to better ourselves? Absolutely. So I have a school, a seminary called Mind of Christ School of Ministry, and so that trains people in metaphysical interpretation.

Kingdom is our brand of new thoughts. So if you Wanted to put us in a larger group. Kingdom is the domination, and new thought is probably the bigger scope.

And so our brand of new thought is Kingdom. So it’s informed by unity, science of mind, the Pentecostal Church. It’s got a lot of stuff kind of mixed in it to create this unique blend.

Because we get two audiences at today’s church, two primary audiences. We have people who are new thought, but they want the Bible. New thought.

Can you explain a little bit more about that? New thought means it’s a new. I believe in Jesus, but I have a new thought about Jesus. That everything Jesus Christ was, I can be too.

Everything he did, I can do. You know, everything he said about himself, I can say about myself. So it’s Jesus, but more as a way shower, as an example, as opposed to more to be followed, as opposed to be worshiped.

So Jesus is still there, but it’s a new thought about Jesus. The Bible is still there, but it’s a new thought about the Bible and how you use it. I can resonate with that more.

Worship was always weird to me. Yeah, it was hard, Hard for me. Like, why does someone need to be worshiped? I don’t want to be worshiped.

But anyway, so there’s the new thought and then the blend of what was the other one? The Pentecostal charismatic type of our church are very lit and live. And we have three services. And one’s kind of quiet, one’s kind of middle of the way, and one’s kind of more, you know, loud, like a rock band kind of thing.

So different people need different things. And in our lives, in different seasons of our lives, we need different things. And so week to week, we might need different things.

So today’s church kind of caters its services to meet what someone might be looking for. So they’re looking for a more quieter, meditative, reflective service. Then they probably come to the 730 centering service.

I was wondering, does it keep getting more intense as the day goes on? All right, that’s 230. We’re off the chain. You’re raven.

That’s great. And so to me, all of it’s God, all of it’s good, and it’s no right or wrong or should be done this way or not that way. I’m kind of more all inclusive.

Well, as far as religions go and denominations go, I feel as connected as any others to that. And I would like to, like, come to a surface and just see what. See what it’s like.

I mean, as we get to know each other more. That’s been on my mind. You are welcome.

Certainly I feel welcome. And that’s. That’s important because it’s interesting when you think about it.

You know, I could be sitting across from a Catholic priest or a fully different religion. We’d have. Be having a very different style of conversation, whether it be super rigid or maybe judgmental or, you know, particular constraints or boxed, you know, and I feel like particular mindsets or belief structures can be so constraining.

When I grew up, I felt very constrained by the parameters in which I was told that this is how you even need to believe and that you should not question it and that questioning it is the worst thing you could do. And I was like, what? You know, and so for me, that was very difficult to wrestle. It’s like, shouldn’t we question it so that we know it better and understand it better or become more correct or accurate and the relationship to reality or how we’re supposed to make decisions on this.

But it was very much, you know, top down. Here’s. Here’s what it is and live by it.

And I like the dynamic aspect of what is clear that you’re doing. It’s more interactive. It’s.

And it’s very practical to how the world is today. I think. I think that’s the way things are going.

This. It’s not one thing. It’s a blend of these things.

Just like, you know, you look at America, we’re a blend of immigrants. We started from all over the place and now we’re just this hodgepodge of people, which is. There’s a beauty to that.

Absolutely. And I feel like we get to see each other better when we look at it through the lens of all inclusive, both. And I don’t have to be right and you wrong or I’m wrong and you’re right.

That why can’t we both be right? Why can’t we do what works and resonates with us? You know, why does it have to be just one way? People are so diverse. So I think it’s important to be open and to be receptive to different ideas. And that works for me.

I’ve preached in the Catholic Church. I bet they loved it. They did.

Oh, yeah. I’ve preached at a mosque for Muslims, for Ramadan. I’ve spoken in Jewish synagogues.

I’ve been to the Baha’is. Anywhere I’m invited, I will speak. And I believe that there’s a message that can be broad enough that regardless of people’s beliefs, that they’re universal truths that resonate with everyone because we’re spiritual beings 100%.

I love that. I think that is, like, one of the most important messages these days, because people are so hung up in differences when 99% of the time, we agree on the same things. And you are getting hung up on 1% and villainizing each other, and we’re living in the same country, the.

The same neighborhood, we’re sharing the same air, and you’re hung up on this. You know, whether it be sports or politics or religion, it’s like, what are you guys doing? We all can agree that we want to be healthy and fed and safe and happy. Can we start there instead of starting immediately? Like, are you a Republican or Democrat? Like, whoa, whoa, whoa.

You don’t. We don’t even know each other. You know what I mean? Let’s start from what we all know.

Hi. Hi. Hello.

How are you? What’s your name? How do you pronounce it? Right. So I really think that it’s important to be open. I think that’s how we learn how we grow to be open, to at least have a conversation about it, to at least be able to think about it.

And one of the things that we do in Kingdom, today’s church, also have a global network of churches called Church at Everlasting Kingdom, is to challenge people to think. To challenge people to think. And my son, I’m a dad, and my son, my baby just turned 26 years old, and, oh, not so much a baby anymore.

He’s my baby. Yeah, of course. And I have granddaughters, Tyler, who is 8, and Nyla, who is 3.

But my son, he said, dad, you know, I don’t know if your congregations are going to be huge. I was like, well, why not? He’s like, because you want people to think. He said, people don’t go to church to think.

They go to church to feel good, not to think. You’re challenging people to think. That’s work.

People want to just be told what to do and feel good and come back next week and get another dose of it. He said, but you’re really challenging people to think, and people don’t always want to do that. And so I kind of grappled with what he said and saw the truth in what he was saying.

And I felt compelled even more to get people to think. And you don’t have to agree, but if I can get you to think about it, I think that I’ve done my work. Well, your son sounds cool, and I think that’s the healthiest thing all of us can do is think.

Once you catch yourself not wanting someone else to think for themselves or question it. Yes. Or someone else is telling you not to think about it, that’s a big old red flag in my opinion.

It’s dangerous. Yeah, it’s very dangerous. That’s what control, power, greed, that’s where that all stems.

I mean, and if you talk about evil versus good or whatever that is, I believe you’re crossing into a threshold when you’re trying to control somebody’s mind. That’s not good. That’s.

Yeah, so that’s. And also I wanted to say that the people, you know, hey, maybe your congregation is a thousand people and it’s not 1500. Well, first off, you’re.

You’re connecting with the people who connect with you. Not everybody is going to connect with what you’re doing regardless of what it is. You’re going to people who are looking to.

To get that dose, but in a different way of. I get this dose of feel good, but I’m thinking for myself or I’m challeng. You’re going to attract those kind of people, which is a great thing.

Absolutely. So we attract those people who are new thought but they still want the Bible because a lot of people throw the baby out with the bathwater and just say, oh, I’m not into the Bible and just toss it out. They’re done with it.

And so we get those people who are new thought, but they want the Bible. And then we also get those people who are traditional Christians but they’re tired of sin and the devil and hell and judgment and condemnation. But they really like the church feel, but they don’t want that.

And you don’t focus on the devil or sin that you’re born a sinner. No, absolutely not. Well, I’m glad.

I feel like there’s not a lot of good there. It’s an interesting topic in itself because that’s how our fourth parents kind of made a need for Jesus. It’s like you were all born in sin and then Jesus comes and saves us from our sins.

And so the original sin kind of created a need for Jesus as a savior to die on the cross for our sins. But I kind of think of Jesus more of like a way shower that shows us the life cycle, like pre existence, birth, life, ministry, career, purpose, death, burial, resurrection, ascension, second coming. So Jesus kind of shows us an example of how someone goes through all these different phases and stages of life and yet holds on to a higher Consciousness.

That’s how I kind of look at Jesus as a way shower more than just Lord and Savior that died on the cross for my sins. I think that’s a small piece of what Jesus did. And there’s so much more that Jesus brought than just dying on the cross for our sins.

Oh yeah, I like the way you put that. Yeah. And it seems much more positive when you frame it in the ways that you’re framing it.

Because the threat of hell and talking about Satan, I mean, it’s so, it’s so interesting. First off, I have a 11 month old, my daughter Juni. And she’s the most beautiful, precious and pure thing aside from my other daughter who’s just two and a half.

And in no piece of me can I even understand how she has sin. She hasn’t done anything. And it’s like I just don’t get that.

Why are you gonna put that on her? She hasn’t done a thing. She’s the most. She’s the model, if anything.

You know, as far as a baby, they haven’t done anything. They’re just living and breathing and being. And there’s a beauty, a purity to that that I’m trying to grab, grab onto and really stick.

Because we’re done. Two is. Two is good.

It’s a lot. And so I’m trying to really like bookmark every feeling that I have about this in stone to take with me in moments where I don’t feel purity is in me or around and to kind of harness that. But you know, I also always grappled with, with, you know, the, that hell and damnation.

I used to ask my mom, well, if you’re going to go to heaven and people are in hell, how are you fully in heaven and happy knowing so many people are for eternity burning, if you will. How, how can you think about that or know that and be fully happy or pleasant in your day to day in heaven or whatever that may be that always, you know, these, there are these things that always. I got hung up on.

Yeah. And I’ve since then been searching for a good answer to that or a good explanation that someone could tell me about. It just.

It doesn’t seem to ever be explained or there’s a diversion to that. And that’s always been difficult for me. I love those kind of questions and discussions.

They’re. They’re meaty, you know, the, the apologetics of all of it or you know, just like diving into to. Why would this.

If, if you know, a God designed this whole system why that? Because that’s part of the design. So that’s an interesting. As a designer myself, that’s my bread and butter, is simplicity, you know, and effectiveness and use.

And it’s like that’s an interesting design choice, design decision as far as if from a designer’s eyes. And that again, a. That’s a kind of a been a hang up.

But I like, I like that you. You frame it as well. We’re going to look at the positive and I don’t.

Does that ever come up? Or do you. Do you try. Do you just try to navigate around it or do you acknowledge it directly? Okay.

Yeah. I think for me, you know, heaven and hell are states of consciousness as opposed to physical places. I think people are living in hell right now, you know, that people are suffering, that people create their own living hells by the decisions and the hopelessness and the disparity.

I think that some people are living in hell by the way they think and the way the decisions that they make. I think that it’s a state of consciousness. I see.

And I think heaven is a state of consciousness of creating a life that you desire and love and joy and peace and health and prosperity. So I see it more as states of consciousness. And now, you know, I’ve never died that I’m aware of and came back.

So it might be a physical place, it might not be. It might be, you know, hell. I don’t know.

I’ve never been there. But whether it is or not, that’s kind of where I am. Whether it is or not, how can I experience heaven now? How can I come out of hell now? I’m not gonna debate about whether it is or isn’t, whether or not Mary was a virgin or not.

How can I use this to better my life? Because I think we get in the weeds. Yeah, sure. And then we miss the mystical and the mystery of it, as opposed to just taking it so literal.

You know, Jesus came here under unusual circumstances. You know, he’s got a stepfather, he’s got a mother that was a virgin or not, and he’s pregnant and they’re not married. He came here under different circumstances than the norm.

Right. And how many of us have come here under unusual circumstance? Maybe you concede in the back of a Chevy or maybe you were adopted. I mean, we come here through different circumstances to fulfill whatever our purpose is.

So that’s how I would look at the virgin birth or heaven or hell. Not throwing it out, but how can I use this to live a better life? And Be a better person because I believe that there’s something with the text that I can resonate with. I believe there is a truth that can help me.

Or it wouldn’t be here. Or the Bible wouldn’t be the most popular book sold every year if it didn’t have something to it. It must be something about it.

Right. But I don’t know that I benefit as much from arguing about the literary piece of it or the literalness of it. I just don’t see where that’s going to benefit us.

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I think that’s a, that’s a really honest, you know, your, your way of saying, I don’t know if it’s a physical place or, or this or that. That’s so refreshing because there’s so, it’s so often that people are so sure and I go, wow, how do you, how do you know that? Do you have a direct line? What’s, what’s God’s number? Can I have it? And. But I think that’s also so practical because okay, we can be honest and we can still use it.

Those, those. That text is beefy and it was written by people who were trying to teach in a way or like here I’m going to tell a story so that you can extract something out of it. I think that’s the point, you know, it’s not that.

The point is that there is a literal talking snake and you need to now know that there’s a talking snake here. It’s like, what is that doing? Like you, you had described your interpretation of what that is. Oh wow.

There’s a lot of meaning there. Yeah. And you can put that meaning to positive action.

Absolutely. So, you know, as far as my resonance of interpretations and things like that go, you’re nailing it as far as. For, for me, you know, I kind of attract people who like to think, yeah, well, we’re, we’re in good Company then sometimes maybe too much, but it’s all good.

Boy, I don’t even know what time it is, but it doesn’t really matter. But I do want to be respectful. I. You know, I. I think it’s interesting.

We’ve kind of talked about it with this. The dynamic world that we live in, and now with technology, with the amazing speed at which we communicate with anybody in the world. There’s this unreal connection to everything, which is so powerful, yet somehow that connection has actually watered down connections in a way or, you know, hurt relationships or whatever that may be.

There’s this. This yin and yang to, you know, with great power comes great responsibility, nuclear power. You could destroy the world, or you could power the world with it.

You know, AI we could. We could really use that for great things like detecting cancer earlier, or we can displace a million jobs tomorrow. And how do we use that? And, you know, I think technology is great to.

To be utilized. Just what do we do with it? But I’m kind of wondering your interpretation as you’ve seen things from your lens on this changing world, whether it be politics and people being so heated or. I’m trying to set the stage for what your perspective is on this.

The dynamics of. Of the world at its current state. If you could reflect on that.

Sure. People. Because I’m also a therapist.

I’m also a minister, and I became a minister because I became a therapist, even though I wasn’t a minister, because I was in a lot of pain, you know, when my wife transitioned 10 days after our twins were born, I was in a lot of pain and transitioned. Yeah. What do you mean by.

That’s for people who don’t know. Died. Yes.

So I don’t believe in death. So I think she’s. Oh, okay, right, right.

You know, because to me, they’re just higher and higher forms of life. Yeah. But she was no longer physically here to be my wife or to be their mother, you know, and so I had a lot of pain around that.

And the idea of being a single dad of twins, two screaming babies, girls, hair bottles, you know, diapers. I mean, just the whole thing, you know, I hadn’t really set my life up to be a single dad, and I was a virgin until I got married, so I felt like I had done everything by the book, the way the Bible, the way the church said I was supposed to do it. And then my wife died.

Transitioned 10 days after they were born. And so I’m instantly a single dad at 22 years old. And that’s how I got into counseling.

Because the church, the Bible, the ministers, they didn’t know what to say or do or how to help me navigate through this. So the tried and true things, it didn’t help me. And so that’s how I got into becoming a therapist and I got into becoming more like new thought, metaphysical kingdom, because I needed a theology that was big enough for me to fit into, where as a dad, as a therapist, a psychologist, a minister, you know, all these different pieces that my theology would be big enough to fit all

the different pieces of my life.

Yeah. And so I remember one day I was at school because I was a school psychologist first and I had a student and she was pregnant and she was not married obviously, and she wanted to have an abortion. And so as a therapist I was very much, you know, let’s look at the differences options and let’s look at the pros and cons and empowering her to make her own decision.

That very same day I went to church, I was also a minister and I had one of the youth members of our church to meet with me and she said she was pregnant. And I totally took a different approach, like you have to have this baby, abortion’s a sin, blah blah, blah, blah, blah, blah blah blah. And I felt like I was in the Twilight Zone.

Dr. Jekyll, Mr. Hyde. It’s like, do do do, do do do do. I was like, I can’t do this anymore.

I need a framework. That’s where I can say the same thing whether I’m in the counseling room, whether I’m in the pulpit, whether I’m one on one small group of friends, family. I needed something that was big enough where I could be consistently me and not have to switch up and cut it on and turn it off and adapt to this and figure out how to be here.

But I was just consistently the same person everywhere I went. And so that’s got me into thinking about things differently and studying new thought and metaphysics and unity and science of mind and all those different kinds of things. And so from that lens, to answer your question, with the things that are going on in the world, especially in the United States of America, I believe that things are coming up and out to be healed.

Wow. I think that there is a lot of healing that needs to happen in this country. But we didn’t even know we were sick.

Uh huh, yeah. Or not admitting it or seeing it. Exactly.

And so now it is on large display. Oh yeah. And we get to look at it and see it and really decide what we’re going to do about it.

Whereas before, I don’t think we really knew the greed, the self centeredness. I think we thought we were all kind of, you know, kumbaya, you know, but people were thinking and feeling this way the whole time, but they were being politically correct and they were playing nice and why don’t we all just get along? But there were things deep inside belief systems that were not being discussed, that were not being talked about. So now that nobody has to play nice, we get to see what’s really in

people’s hearts, what’s really in people’s minds, and then we can make some decisions and choices about how to deal with it.

But until it comes up and out and we really get to the truth of what people are really thinking and feeling, we can’t heal it. And so that’s my take on what’s going on. It’s just like having a cold.

You got this phlegm on your chest. In order to heal, as nasty as it is, as, as ugly as it is, as much as it is disgusting, it has to come up and out in order for you to heal. Right.

Wow. When I was asking that question, or trying to, I just assumed inaccurately that your perspective on that would be powerful. I’ve not thought about it in that way and I think it’s so accurate.

I mean, just like take that clip and show everybody and go, this is what’s happening. All right, so now in your opinion, what is the, what are the methods of. To go from here? How do we heal? What do we do with this as a individual or as a community? What now? I think that we recognize the pieces and parts of it that are in us.

Because as ugly as it looks on the screen and as much as we can point the finger and say those people, I believe some of those thoughts and feelings may be on lesser degrees also in us. So we look at our own isms and schisms and biases and deal with that on an individual level. I think it causes us to look at our families and to have discussions and talk about things as opposed to us dividing.

Oh, I can’t believe you could think that way. Believe that, do that. I don’t have anything else to do with you done.

We’re finished. Right. Even if you’re my family, I know how this has caused families to just divide friendships, to break up companies to just be abolished.

Because it’s so clear now, are you on this side or that side? Yeah. And now I think it’s time for us to have the conversations, to have the discussions within ourselves as individuals, our smaller groups and as a collective to start talking about these things and to look at alternative ways to deal with these things. I didn’t even know the power that people had in various positions.

I wasn’t interested. It didn’t suit my fancy. But now, oh, you could do that in that position.

It’s like, who knew that you had that? I just never thought that different positions carried that kind of power and had authority to do certain things. So it’s like it’s a wake up call. Right.

And so now I will certainly be more conscious of what I’m doing and how I’m doing it and who and what I’m supporting and why and all those kinds of things. So. So that’s what I feel is the answer.

The solutions to talk and let’s find the common ground and let’s find the good and the balance and what needs to happen to deal with the fear. Because I believe that’s what we’re always choosing between love and fear. People say that faith casts out fear.

I do not believe that. I believe that love, that we’re always choosing between love and fear. So what is the fear? What are you afraid of that’s causing you to respond? And if we can deal with the fear and heal that fear, then we can get into more of the love and the acceptance and all that.

But until you address what the fears are, it’s like my twin daughters when they were little girls and they thought the boogeyman was in the room. I could show them, I could cut the light on, show them under the bed, put a flashlight, there’s no boogeyman. Open the closet.

But because they were afraid, they needed love. They needed me to hug them and hold them. And you know, you can come into bed with dad for a while until you kind of calm down and then we were able to move.

So when people are afraid, they don’t need to be fake. Well, you need to believe. You need to know that there are no boogeyman, that that’s not going to do it.

They need love. And so the solution for me is to let’s deal with the fears, go beyond the hate and all of that because I believe underneath of all of that is fear. What are we afraid of? What’s the fear here that’s driving this bus? And let’s deal with the fears.

And the way we do that is with love. And if we can deal with the fears and have conversations, I think we can get to common ground. I feel that we can get to solutions and resolutions, but as long as there’s fear, I think it keeps us from healing.

Boy, I’m just gonna like, let you talk the rest of the time. I can see why you could be a preacher at 7. I couldn’t agree more.

And I felt it even, you know, many, many, many years ago once things didn’t click with me more and more and I was like, what’s going on? How are people seeing this? Or why aren’t we correcting this? Whether, you know, like for instance, climate change. I did my thesis, that was my first podcast. It was called the Belief Books.

Okay. And I was talking to people about their beliefs and I focused. My first topic was climate change and climate change denial.

And I was like, curious, like, like, here’s all of the facts. How, what’s, why aren’t we doing anything about. It’s pretty.

And I’m interviewing all these people and I just, it just only becomes more and more real. What are we doing? Shouldn’t we be more careful? Do people not care? What are they scared of? What’s the fear under there? You know, well, oh, well, this is the way we’ve done it. And you know, it costs more money to transition this energy company away from this rather than doing that, when actually that’s short sighted because the energy companies who are going to transition now first are going to be making

the money later.

But that’s, it’s, it’s just, it’s so interesting because conversation comes down to conversation, whether it be with yourself internally, which it needs to start with. Let’s have a conversation. Me, what’s.

What’s what what is blocking what’s in the way. And now I can have a conversation with, with the closest ones around me. Then you can have bigger conversations.

But it all stems from communication. Absolutely. And in dealing with it head on, rather than, nope, we’re done.

And I mean, I’m not saying that like in some, some cases, if someone is just absolutely bringing you down and whatever that may be and it’s aggressive or whatever, maybe it is like, maybe there’s only so much in your control and that’s kind of a difficult thing to navigate and then I guess focusing your attention elsewhere. But what’s in your control is doing your best to love, to communicate, to understand, to course correct, to find the solution. These are, they’re such powerful things.

And I feel like people don’t, don’t take it seriously. They think that’s cliche to sound, which it Might be a cliche, but it is the truth. It is.

That is the solution. But people are like, oh, that’s, you know, hippie, dippy or whatever it might be. You know, it’s like.

But it is the thing. How could you argue with it? But it’s like, oh, no, that’s not. Like, there’s not a number to that.

It’s not a thing that I can engage with. Well, it absolutely is. Absolutely.

It’s not on my screen. Well, absolutely is. It is a thing.

There’s just so much there. There. That’s why I have this podcast.

That’s why I love talking to people like you. I want to have more of these particular conversations. I. We talked about business owners and people doing awesome things.

Musicians and having them perform live. I had my grandma on. I love that.

I love this conversation. I’m glad that we’re really not talking about business. It’s fantastically refreshing.

Yeah. So hopefully people who need to maybe hear the things that you’re saying, hear it. We feel like we have to do a part two.

Absolutely. I’m open and receptive. Cool.

I have some ideas I want to tell you about and I think I can involve you in some other stuff we’re doing with naming Creative News Network that I want to make spoiler alert people. Maybe helping people who are business oriented or working on a lot of things. It’s clear that you do a lot.

I mean, I don’t know how some people get things done. Get it all done. I’ve got a lot on my plate.

It’s very hard to get everything done. Last night I was. I continually fall asleep at my keyboard.

Last night was the first time I’ve ever fallen asleep recording a loom video of feedback for my team member. Oh, wow. And it was like a blink sleep.

So it was like two seconds where I fell asleep and I was talking and then I picked back up, but I knew I was asleep sleep. I was like, okay, I really need to go to bed now. But anyways, how do you manage your time? What are the methods that you manage your time and tasks to get this all done, to stay peaceful, to stay calm.

And maybe that is the solution because I know you meditate. I do. And you do journal.

Okay. Journaling is a big part of what I do to process my thoughts and feelings. I believe in forgiving everyone every day for everything, including myself.

And so I’m only dealing with what happened in this situation. I’m not bringing what happened last week and last month and last year and century and decade into this, this is just about this. It’s not about anything else.

Because I’ve forgiven that, I’ve released that and I let that go. I did years of therapy and I forgave a whole lot of people for a whole lot of things. And I was like, I’m never going to be backed up with all of that bitterness and resentment and hurt and pain.

I said, now I got myself clear of that. I need to stay in that mode of clarity. So I do.

I spend a couple hours a day doing journaling, meditation, mindfulness, breathing. You know, I light a candle every day. I put my fingers towards the candle and allow any negative energy, thoughts, feelings, unforgiveness, and I name it, to come out of my fingertips, as it were, into the wax.

And so I do forgiveness. I do affirmations in the mirror. Call it mirror work.

So it’s like it takes me about two hours before I’m ready for public consumption is what I call it. It’s like you don’t go out without washing your face and brushing your teeth and taking a shower and putting on deodorant. So I do that also mentally, emotionally, spiritually as well, and not just physically.

So I’m prepared to be loving and peaceful and, you know, kind to everyone. Cause I did all the stuff that I needed to do. I didn’t just wake up like this.

I did all the stuff that I needed to do for me. Working out, exercising, stretching. All the things that I need to do for me so that I can live a holistically healthy, balanced and well rounded life and show up as a radiating center of love.

Because I did that for me. So then when I come out the door, I’m ready to share that with everybody because I did it in here first. And so that’s kind of how I’m energized to do what I do.

That’s awesome. Makes so much sense. And you do that to start your day every day.

That’s. That’s the way you start your day. You don’t start your day without that start.

I do not. That’s part one. Yeah.

If I’m not, if I haven’t done that, I’m not ready to come out. I’m not ready for public consumption. I love that.

That’s a great phrase. And I mean, people consume in. I mean, you’re giving a lot of your energy, which is unbelievable.

So I love that you’re not like, oh yeah, I use this task management tool and my calendar organization, AI bot. You know, I love how you didn’t mention anything of that. Because I truly, first off, need to do more of what you’re doing.

And I feel like people go and myself, wow, two hours. Yeah. Then you have less time to do the things, but in fact, you have more time.

Exactly. You’re probably way more effective, way more clear. You’re not carrying around baggage.

You’re not worried about getting the workout in or doing this or that because it’s been done and now you can just be and do that. Exactly, Exactly. That is totally it.

And a part of what I do is I do pray with my calendar that I do a visualization where I look at what’s on my calendar and I see each thing successful. Wow. I see each thing flowing with the ease and breeze of spirit.

And I mentally, I believe that everything is created twice, first in your mind and your heart, and then in physical manifestation. So before you and I got here, you know, physically, I already spent time with you today, this morning, you know, seeing the podcast go well, seeing everything flow and work out, and it’d be a positive thing. So I’ve already envisioned it and visualized it because I believe that we’re creative, naming creative, and we have the power to create our lives.

So I’ve already visualized this going, wow. And this being a positive interaction because I believe I can co create with God the life that I desire and the life that I deserve, so I don’t just do it. So by the time I get with you, I’m just being.

Because any thoughts, feelings, anxiety about it. I dealt with that this morning for when I woke up. Wow, that’s so powerful.

And here we are. And here we are manifesting it out. Manifesting, absolutely.

100%. Oh, man. First off, my wife is going to eat this episode up, and I am, too.

I can put it on repeat. I love it. So there is a section of the episode because I want to be respectful of your time.

Sure. And it’s called the rapid fire. Okay.

So ultimately, I ask quick questions, ideally with quick responses, obviously, if you need to expand, that’s cool. Okay. But I try to ask some of the similar questions to all my guests to see the similar threads and the differences, and it’s always so fun.

Okay, so you ready? I’m ready. All right, cool. So, number one, what is your biggest source of inspiration? My offspring.

I call them offspring because they said, we’re not children anymore, dad. We’re grown. So do you like being called offspring? You did that to yourself.

My offspring, I think, are the biggest source of Inspiration. Resource of inspiration. Yeah.

I feel that now. Very much so. My answer would have been very different two and a half years ago.

But now that’s default. That’s where everything stems. So that’s beautiful because people can see you as powerful and all of this and successful.

But what are my children? What do my offspring think about me? What do they say about me as a dad, as a person? Do they see me, or is this just for the cameras? And how do they see me? So that’s big for me. Because that’s the true you. That’s the true.

That’s you. Yeah. And that’s who you want to be out everywhere.

Exactly. Yeah. Yeah.

I feel such a calibration has happened in my life since my first daughter was born. And now it’s like, doubled down with Juni me. And I wouldn’t change anything about what that’s done to my life.

Absolutely. So I resonate very much with you on that. Besides the Bible, what is your favorite book? Unless that wasn’t your favorite book, but just wanted to kind of like, if that’s a default, besides the Bible, my second Bible is Louise Hay.

You can heal your life. You can heal your life by Louise Hay. Okay.

It’s so powerful because she goes through different symptoms, diseases, and tells you what the thoughts and feelings are behind that disease that actually creates that dis ease as you dis ease in the body. Whoa. Powerful book.

Sounds like it, huh? Even just the breakdown of that word, sometimes, you know, you don’t think about what a word actually is. You go, huh. Like the other day, I can’t remember who it was.

Maybe my wife, she goes, you know, the word ear is in here. And I was like, yes. What? It’s been there my whole life, and I never put that together.

Wow. An ear. And here are in heart.

Whoa. I got a lot to think about. Geez.

All right, moving on. You can listen to one album or musical artist forever. Who isn’t? Oh, my God.

I love Jill Scott. Jill Scott. Jill Scott.

Okay. I love Jill Scott. I can listen to her on and on and on.

Cool. I look forward to checking her out. The most influential leader, you know, the most influential leader I know, I would say, was my spiritual teacher, the Reverend Dr. Mary A. Tompkin.

She told me, the only soul you are saving is your own, and the only person you preaching to is yourself. Wow. And so that kind of was like a wake up call where I’m thinking, I’m doing all this for other people.

She said, but you preaching because you gotta Preach. You’re saving yourself. You’re doing this because this is what you need to do to fulfill your purpose.

And other people are benefiting from it. So that was a game changer for me. Me.

Sounds like it. Some of these things hard to move forward because I want to dive in. We can always do it on part two.

Part two. I love it. I love it.

Great. I know you travel a lot. Where’s your favorite place you’ve ever traveled to? Valencia, Spain.

Okay. Just so beautiful. Like the buildings, the architecture, the.

The water, the. I mean, it’s just. I feel like I was just baptized in beauty when I was in Valencia, Spain.

Okay. Putting that on the list. Great.

All right. Okay, cool. Me and my wife are big travelers.

Oh, I love traveling. She’s been there, but I have not, so. Oh, there’s nothing better as far as getting out of your head or out of your bubble.

Understanding others more. Traveling has changed my life in more ways than I could ever explain. Absolutely.

It’s the healthiest thing in my opinion. And I’m so glad I used all my money on that. I would gain money and go broke.

Gain money, go broke because I would use it on traveling. It was just the game for years. We are brothers from another mother.

I love it. Cool. All right, last one.

I feel like you’re going to nail this one. What is your definition of success? The definition of success for me is the fulfillment of purpose that you have an idea of why you came here to this planet, to this incarnation. And fulfillment comes from fulfilling your purpose.

And to me, when you can be fulfilled by fulfilling your purpose, then that is success. Love it. Love it.

Well stated, too. It’s sometimes hard to get it out on what that is. I see a lot of people that these questions catch them really off guard because they’ve actually never articulated it, but that was easy to resonate with.

It’s interesting. I haven’t felt this since I was a kid, but I just felt like an out of body thing. It just hit me.

That was very weird and I felt compelled to say it. Wow. I used to feel.

I used to lay in bed and feel extremely tiny in relation to things that I was feeling. I just got that feeling. I haven’t felt it and since I was a kid.

I have no idea what just happened. But that was so strange. And not a bad.

And not a bad strange. That’s that power presence of the Holy Spirit. Look it washing over me.

Yes. The whoosh. Yes.

All right. Naming creative is no longer. It’s naming preaching.

Now which is so creative. That’s why I love to preach. Yeah, it’s.

I mean, there’s, there’s so much there and you can preach in so many different ways. You know, you, you presented at SunLeaders and your presentation, there was this simplicity to it. You were the first presenter of this year, talking about vision and the content.

It’s like, huh, I’ve heard that before for sure. But the way that you put it, your delivery of it, it was just hit me and it hit everybody in that room. Everybody was like, whoa.

But it’s. You were asking like five one word questions. And the way that you made that so powerful and impactful is such a, such an illustration of who you are, I think.

I mean, you’re. This is a. Your gift.

It absolutely is. And it’s so inspiring and motivating to be connected. And I call you a friend of people who are doing that.

And so I want to thank you for that. Thank you. This has been such a pleasure.

I always end it with, what is your biggest piece of advice for anybody listening, young or old, whatever they’re doing? My biggest piece of advice for anyone is to know that everything you need is inside of you. That every answer to every question is inside. And if you can go within and bring it out, you can have all the love, joy, peace, success, health that you desire.

As long as you know where it is, it’s inside of you. It’s not in another person, it’s not in a book, it’s not in a religion, it’s not at a conference. It’s within you.

And when you can be still and tap into that knowingness that it is inside of you, then everything outside of you just flows. Boy, oh boy, that’s powerful. And man, could I not agree with what you said more.

If you’ve gotten this far in the episode and you are not blown away or impacted to do something, I don’t know, I don’t know if you were listening to this or not or paying attention to something else, but I just want to thank you for your time again. I really look forward to part two, because that’s got to happen. Thanks so much, Dr. Pulley.

Thank you for having me. It.