49: From Web Design to Intelligent Design (w/ Allen Pieper)

Here we are, the Naaman Creative Show. We’re back for another episode. Oh my goodness., and we have Allen Pieper here all the way from Indiana and my old stomping grounds. And, uh, we go back far to our undergrad university days working on SIGGRAPH together. Uh, man, honestly, I haven’t really like thought about it because we’re just jumping into this conversation and doing catch-up.

Um, but just to give you guys some background, uh, Alan is incredibly talented. So ever since I knew him, you could just tell when people are go-getters, right? And, uh, Alan’s definitely no exception to that. And so he’s a founder of a cool firm called Oldspeak. And, uh, ultimately, you know, from, from what I gather, I was looking at your LinkedIn real quick before I started because I’m like, what did he write about himself?

And, uh, you’re talking about that, um, you saw a gap between thoughtful, beautiful experiences creatives aspire to create and the tough limiting realities, in quotes, imposed on them by technical constraints. Right. And so those are, you said, these realities are often anything but real. And, you know, that’s so you. And, and so I wanted to kind of set that up that like, this is who we’re talking to.

And, you know, I just, I think it’s, it’s awesome how you’re approaching building it. And I want to say one other thing is that you were able to employ one of our shared professors, Dan Baldwin, for I don’t, I don’t know how long. And I’ll let you get into that. But like, you attracted some incredible talent because Dan is, is high end. And I take- I’ve taken a lot from him.

So I just wanted to like commend you for that because I don’t think I’ve been able to chat with you about that. So anyways, Allan, thanks for your time and coming on the show. How you doing? Doing great, man. Thanks for having me.

Yeah, it’s a pleasure. Yeah, uh, I do want to comment on, uh, the Dan thing a little bit, uh, just to throw it out there ahead of time. I love Dan a lot, and I feel very grateful for COVID. For- I know, I know how maybe that’s like, uh, not a thing a lot of people feel good about saying, you know what I mean? A lot of people, it’s like you know, you either get better or you get worse during, during that whole thing.

But I think that if it weren’t for that, I wouldn’t have been able to get Dan. And man, working with Dan is a, is a trip, and I, I love that dude like a, like a brother or an uncle even, you know. Sure. Yeah. Well, I mean, his talent is off the charts, and he was also able to teach in a particular way that really proved he knew his stuff, you know.

I, I Like, I swear weekly I say one of his quotes. He used to say, think 8 hours work too. You remember that? I don’t. You don’t?

Oh man, that, that stuck with me forever. I always tell my clients that, you know, we’re going to do a lot upfront. We know where to click. We know how to code. You know, we like, why, why are we doing it?

What are we, what are we building here? Yeah, I know how to make something in Photoshop. That’s not the problem. Yeah. Well, that makes sense because at the beginning of a lot of our proposals that we would send out to folks, we would have an Abraham Lincoln quote that’s something to the effect of, uh, if I had like 6 hours to cut down a tree, I’d spend the first 4 sharpening my axe.

Uh-huh. That’s perfect. That’s even better, almost. Yeah. Yeah.

Everybody knows who Abe Lincoln is. Only, only like 175 people know who Dan Baldwin is. But yeah, on that, on that level anyway, you know what I mean? Sure, sure. Uh, that’s a, that’s a good quote.

I like that a lot. Um, well, I mean, maybe you could kind of start there. So like, that’s how you- I mean, if you include that in your proposals, that kind of, that already sets the stage for something. But I guess maybe, um, for those who don’t know and maybe curious to get inside your head a little for myself, um, because this podcast, let’s be honest, it’s a little selfish for me. I just get to talk to like the coolest high-end people doing all sorts of neat stuff.

Like, and now I’m at work right now, uh, I can’t complain. But I’d like to know, you know, like, what, what are you doing at Old Speak? And then, you know, through that thread, maybe kind of tell the story of what, what you’re doing different, what your take is that’s different. Yeah, well, we’re kind of going through a little bit of a, uh, almost like an identity split right now, which is interesting. So I was listening to you read my LinkedIn bio and I was kind of smirking a little bit because I feel like whenever you said like, hey, that’s totally you.

And it is. And it’s kind of funny, uh, how like, I don’t know, maybe, uh, unnecessarily aggressive it is. You know what I mean? There’s something about it that’s like, uh, definitely Vintage me. But anyway, uh, that, that I feel like that perfectly encapsulates an older slash still current but like not the whole anymore picture of what Old Speak is.

Originally, you know, we kind of looked at HTML, CSS, JavaScript, things like that as design tools. And not necessarily as a separate category of development. And I always resented being called a developer. And even today, I might get a little mad at you, give you a little side eye if you call me a developer or something like that. Noted.

Just because I went to school for design, you know what I mean? That’s like the thing that I care about. And you know what I ended up seeing when I was in my earlier agency jobs was that whenever a design was done, a couple of things. First off, the design oftentimes wouldn’t be very thoughtful to a responsive artboard kind of environment, you know what I mean? Like a lot of people were print designers at the time.

Responsive web design had just come out a couple of months before I graduated college. And so it wasn’t really a thing people were used to thinking about. And then, uh, the whole UX world at the time seemed to me to be relatively volatile and new because of that. And so we were seeing a lot of design kind of fall short of what was really happening with how people were actually using things because it’s just the context had changed so quickly. And then Also, on the other end of it, you have developers.

And a lot of times developers, nearly all the time, I guess, are not very design savvy, you know what I mean? It’s not really- it’s not their second or even third language, you know what I mean? Like, they don’t- yeah. And so, uh, a lot of times you can’t even make eye contact with them. It’s a whole thing.

But anyway, uh, we ended up- I guess I ended up observing at the time that if I were to figure out how to execute these things on the development side of things, I could be friends with every designer to ever exist because they all have that problem, or at least used to. You know, it’s kind of, it’s kind of getting blown out of the water these days with all of these new tools that allow developers to, or designers to, you know, basically produce a thing that is akin to them developing the thing without actually having to do it. So it’s like that, that kind of thing is maybe dying just a little bit. But, uh, you know, it was always such like such an easy sell for me every time I would talk to any designer, any creative person even, uh, who cared about the aesthetic or the overall feel, or like the why of a thing, you know what I mean? And it wasn’t treating it as a deliverable.

That’s kind of where that language in that, in that LinkedIn bio came from, right? Why it was so like kind of aggressive, because I feel like it was a really big weak point that people would send their designs off to basically get butchered. And, uh, and if you can, if you can, I found it Being able to like talk about that pain point for these folks was like a trust builder. And then to be able to talk about it so viscerally was like a, uh, I don’t know, like it was moving to some people, you know what I mean? Like, so I got a lot of traction with a bunch of different agencies when I first started out, uh, playing that game where we’re kind of you know, trying to destroy this like limiting mindset that a lot of designers had that was basically like, well, I’m gonna do the best I can, or maybe even slightly short of the best I can, because it’s just gonna get butchered anyway.

And then I’m gonna have to deal with the pain of this thing getting mauled in production. And, uh, and then being able to like circumvent that Uh, you know, build that trust with these people. We, we still get tons of work because of that to this day. So I still really care about that. But then on the other side of it, we have been developing a bias towards communications first.

And so we’re, uh, which is kind of a cool, like, bias to have with the name Oldspeak, because Oldspeak is just, uh, like a fictional term from Mr. George Orwell about plain English. It’s just plain spoken English. Okay, I was wondering. Okay, yeah. And, uh, to contrast against in the book 1984, where it’s a reference from Newspeak being a, uh, like a governed language that kind of prevents you from having meaningful thought, or there’s like a lot of doublespeak or things like semantic things in the language that prevent critique or make things sound bigger than they are or whatever, you know what I mean?

How old of you? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So anyway, uh, the communications bias that we’re kind of leaning into now takes us away from just the delivery of the final product. And instead, we’re still doing the delivery, but we’re really interested at the beginning part of it now because we find that the communications, the overall communication strategy is basically the foundation for everything. And if you, if you don’t set your foundation first, wait for it to, to cure, you know, like to use building terminology, like just really just let it settle and, and test it that it’s gonna be able to hold weight.

If you don’t do that first, everything that you do afterwards is kind of shaky and it often falls apart. And so we’re noticing, you know, we’ll get through a project and what it’ll be at the end and content still isn’t done yet. And when content’s not done yet, if you think about what comes out of your content, Maybe it’s the entire creative angle for the whole thing. So if you’ve built this whole thing and the, the very spice of it has yet to be created because you’re creating it as a, as a secondary layer to fill in the thing that you just made, how are you going to get the most out of the thing? If you do, that’s a separate skill in and of itself to be able to, to figure that out.

And, you know, as we have started to move more away from agency work, like just working with other agencies and working with clients on the whole thing instead, every time we get a chance to do that, we find that our designs are able to specifically be relevant to the exact message that we’re trying to share. And that includes, you know, the animations. Like a bunch of different components on the page, how you’re trying to guide somebody to choose an action. Like, if you know what that action is ahead of time, you can do a way better job of that. This all seems like basic stuff to me.

It just like, it feels like the most duh thing. But I don’t know if this is your experience or not. I’m telling you, uh, oh, you’re preaching, man. Yeah, because literally a meeting this morning, I’m like hammering away, look, We can build some bones, but I need you guys plugging away at the content. I gotta, we gotta, because I’ve, it’s something that I want so badly and it’s just so difficult to do constantly.

90, I swear, 90 to 95% of most projects, it’s content second because that’s honestly harder in a way because when you’re building a new site, for instance, they’re having to think about who they are. At the, like, the core fundamentals quickly. Like, how can I quickly say our essence in these various pages and succinctly direct them to do what they- what we want them to do and tell our story succinctly? And that is difficult. Same with logo design.

Like, it’s- logo design is difficult. People are like, why is it- why is it not just $500 for this logo? It’s like, this is a difficult thing. We’re condensing your whole company into an icon. The same with content.

But it is the absolute dream what you’re talking about. It’s so great and refreshing and encouraging for myself to hear because I need to implement it more. Like, look, we can build the bones, we know what the outline of the pages are going to be on this website, but we can’t move forward with the design of it really until we’ve got the content. You know, it’s like content first, then we can, we can, we can move forward because you’re right, it informs so much. It’s like I have these Pixar posters behind me, and you think they start like making WALL-E before they know the story behind WALL-E?

No, they spent years developing the story, then they get to work on the visuals. Yeah, it should be the same with us. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, and just to touch on WALL-E just for a second, a no-dialogue movie with that kind of emotional depth is insane. Oh dude.

Yeah, yeah, that’s why I got it right here. Um, yeah, someone asked like, what are your favorite- what’s your favorite film of all the posters that you have in your, in your office? And I’m like, WALL-E. Like, the first 20 minutes is no dialogue and they crushed it. I mean, it’s, it’s very much not a lot of dialogue and absolutely crushed it. Soundtrack’s great, it’s beautiful, it’s in space and I like space.

Tugs at everything for me. And it’s also a cautionary tale in a way. Um, so I think you could probably tell a lot about somebody by their favorite Pixar movie. Like, I was seeing WALL-E back there, I’m like, that is the most Josh Pixar movie ever. What do you think my favorite Pixar movie is, just from what you know about me?

Have you, uh, I had to pull it out. If it’s not WALL-E, Soul. It’s, it’s probably Up or Monsters, Inc. It’s historically been Monsters, Inc. Up’s right here in front of me. I love it.

Yeah, okay, okay. Have you- you’ve seen Soul? No, I haven’t. Oh, okay, homework. All right, because it’s gonna change after you watch it.

Soul is not a children’s movie at all. Um, don’t watch it on mushrooms. Um, but, uh, dude, it’s, uh, it’s really, really deep. Um, it’s it’s incredibly powerful. Um, so hit me up after you, after you watch that.

How new is that? Honestly, not, not super new. Let’s see, I’m gonna pull that up. Jamie, 2020. Yeah, I’m about half worried about the new ones, to be honest.

For some reason I feel like, uh, I feel you, they’ve been dropping a little bit. Yeah, no, I, I understand. Like this, uh, this poster about Hoppers was sent to me by Frank Tai. I’ve had him on the podcast, like he’s like episode 10 or something, and he couldn’t talk about it because I was like, what film are you working on? And he’s like, I can’t talk about it.

And so he sent me this poster in the mail. I got like a tube from Pixar. I’m like, out of the blue. And he signed it and it says, Josh, uh, it’s the movie I was working on when you interviewed me. You know, and he’s like, you know, we’re finally done, so it’s ready for the world next year.

I hope you and your family will like it, Frank. And I was like, oh cool. But I’m kind of- it’s same with Dumb and Dumber 2. I still have not brought myself to watch that because Dumb and Dumber 1 is like perfection, you know what I mean? I feel you, I feel you.

Soul, I promise you, you won’t regret. All right, yeah, yeah. And it’s music-based, it’s, uh, it’s about music. And, and, uh, we’re talking to a a fellow musician. Alan plucks the strings, bangs on the skins.

Uh, you and I share- actually, you know, think about it, like, we have- we share a ton in common. We shared a lot more, uh, before a recent transition, but I still feel like, you know, we absolutely share, like, a lot of mindset, design, music, even the taste. Yeah, I, I kind of joke a little bit that you’re Dirt Bike Allen and I’m like, I’m Skateboard Josh or something. That’s great. I’d like a shirt with that, please.

Yeah, but yeah, to go, to go back to, uh, the, the content first thing. Yeah, you brought up how difficult it is to make a logo and how people are kind of surprised that it’s not a $500 thing. Yeah. And, and it is sometimes, you know, and then, uh, people are also, I think, kind of surprised whenever we try to push content first because it’s not, because it, first off, because it’s hard. It’s the harder way to do it, like you were talking about, but also it’s the most, uh, It’s like the thing that everybody thinks they can write, cuz everybody can technically write, you know what I mean?

Like we can all read and write, we’ve been doing it forever. So it’s not as, uh, like obscure or shocking of a skill to have as like to create something visual that feels a little different. And so whenever we’re saying that the visual thing isn’t necessarily the most important part, we’re finding that. First, you know, sometimes people are really into that and that’s why we get hired, you know? Yeah.

And other times it’s like almost like a source of friction that that’s the case. And I think that those two topics, the logo and the content-first thing, I think that they’re kind of related around the same, like they have a, they have a similarity. And that similarity is that there is a scale to the stakes of the game that people are playing. And there are people who need a $500 logo, you know, and that, that might be a local farm, right? Or just some kind of thing.

Or like, maybe there are people who can’t imagine having content first because they don’t even have product market fit yet, or some kind of whatever the equivalent is in, in industry and they don’t know who they are yet. And the process of figuring that out is taxing, internal introspective work. But then also, uh, it doesn’t end there because it’s not about you, it’s about your customer. So it’s like you gotta figure out how to do that introspective work and then you have to figure out how to map that onto a thing that somebody wants for the reason that they want it. It’s very difficult.

And to be in that situation where you have to care about something like that, is like being in the same situation where you have to care about having a logo that’s not $500. Like, these things are just deeper levels of stakes, and a lot of businesses just aren’t playing games like that, even if they think that they are. It’s like, not every business needs those things. Yeah. Well, you joked earlier at the, at the beginning, you know, before this podcast, I had some spam guy in my mail, uh, in my text messages that seemed to be impersonating you.

And, uh, how flattering. Yeah. And, uh, and I was joking that he was trying to like steal my identity or something like that. And you said something about he might be somebody looking for a $100,000 web project or whatever. I’ll tell you what, when I first started, just, I had no idea that, that a six-figure web project could exist that was an actual website and not some giant application system or some kind of huge technical thing.

But there really are people out there playing these super high-stakes games to where that’s not even a big deal, right? And, you know, we’ve been exposed to that at least over the last 5 years. But for the first 5 years, you know, we weren’t- we weren’t doing anything like that. And it would have shocked me if I had known that and I was just playing in low-stakes games and dealing with low-stakes pain points. Uh, as you know, as a creator, I want to create, uh, I guess the most potent, valuable thing I can create.

Uh, some people want to create like the coolest or the most aesthetic expression of themselves that they can create, like artists or whatever. I’m not particularly into art in that way. Like, I’m more interested in design, like the business case of I guess you could say the business case of art, but like, I want to create a really potent, valuable thing. And I love the way you put that. Yeah, I kept, I kept finding myself like stuck, uh, dealing with the friction of a low-stakes thing, you know, where it’s like somebody’s not going to care.

And I’m like, and I care like an insane amount, you know what I mean? I’m sure, I know you can relate to it, but it’s like I care about whatever it is that I’m doing more than I care about sleeping or eating sometimes. Yeah, I don’t know why I’m like this. Something happened to me when I was a kid, you know what I mean? But I know there are a lot of people like this.

I’m not like special for it or anything, but there’s just like, I want to do the thing, and I have been working on executing at a high level for so long that anytime something comes along that is some kind of low-stakes thing that’s preventing me from being able to execute on that level, it bothers me, which is where that split was coming from that I was telling you about. Like, we’re really trying to focus on doing the highest-stakes things we could possibly do because those people really value the thing. And whenever the thing is supremely valued, you get to build the best version of it that could exist. And that’s fun in a way that Uh, maybe more, you know, uh, superficially, like aesthetic things aren’t quite as fun, even though they’re still fun, you know. It’s just like, it’s just a little difference.

And I wouldn’t want to do only high stakes things. Like, low stakes things are fun to do every now and then. It’s like, uh, kind of like weightlifting. You don’t always lift heavy. Sometimes you gotta- sure, cut the weight down and do some volume.

Like, it’s, it’s fine. Yeah. I love the way that you’re putting that. Ultimately, your story is that you’re aligning with the people who need you because there’s an absolute place for, you know, for instance, a Wix builder or these quick, you know, a cookie cutter or template-based, or, you know, people who are a one-man show and they’re gonna, they’re gonna do development and design all in one and do that as best as possible and they’re going to charge a low amount and that’s That’s great. It, they, it absolutely has a place.

I like, my journey continues to be for me, and I feel like maybe I’m catching up to you because I’d love to get into the six-figure range of, uh, of projects. You know, it becomes that over time because we don’t just end, we continue our relationships, which is a bigger part of the puzzle, and I’m sure we’re gonna get there. But like, just aligning with the people who need you at the caliber. It’s like, for instance, we’re both musicians. If you- or playing ping pong- if you, if you are looking to join a band and then you, you, you go to the first tryout and they’re playing and you’re like, oh my gosh, these people have only been playing for like 5 years.

Like, I- they, they barely can like hold a rhythm to this click or whatever. Like, this can’t- we can’t do this. Like, there’s you’re, you’re only going to be brought down by that caliber, like, because they’re just not there yet. And that’s fine because they’re on their journey up, you know. But it’s like, for me, when I played ping pong- I’m much worse at ping pong now, I haven’t played in a while- but like, I couldn’t bear it to play with someone who couldn’t play ping pong.

I was like, what are we doing? Like, I can’t- this is pointless, this is a waste of time, and it’s crushing my soul. I need someone who’s really good at ping pong, better than me. Because now, now we’re talking. Yeah, that’s like me with StarCraft, man.

I’m, I’m, I had to quit playing StarCraft because of it. I, uh, yeah, I’m over here like, when somebody’s not really good at it, I’m like, I forget that I’ve probably played 15,000 hours worth of StarCraft in my life, you know what I mean? So whenever somebody’s not good, I get Uh, if I’m, if I’m on the receiving end of the negative effects of them being not good, like we’re losing a game, all right, I am not a happy camper. And then, and then for that matter, if I’m beating somebody who’s not good, I’m like, I want to get smashed, you know what I mean? I’m a student of the game, I want to learn something.

And if I’m not getting smashed, it’s like, well, I look, I barely have half an hour as it is, and I just spent a half hour in this game and didn’t get anything out of it. I don’t know. Yeah, I just had to quit and I just play more drums. Yeah, well, that’s- I mean, that’s a, that’s a different game in itself, in my opinion. I mean, we’re both fathers now.

That’s the hardest thing that I’ve ever done. But like, getting my master’s or the business compared to drumming, like, drumming is by far the hardest thing I’ve ever done. Again, before, fatherhood is challenging in the best way. And it’s the same with drums. Like, it takes so much focus.

It’s like meditation almost. Like, there is nothing else that can be if you’re drumming because it takes so much out of you or from you to do it properly and to like be in it. And that’s what I love, is like, it’s, it’s this world and it’s so challenging and then so so rewarding when you’re in it, in the pocket, you crushed it, you nailed it, you know. Like, yeah, for me, I- mine was Team Fortress 2. I don’t think I had 15,000 hours, but I had like, I think, a thousand or something.

And I was like, because Steam tracks it or whatever. And I was like, because I’m pretty good at Team Fortress 2. And I was like, but- and it was cool because I could like pop in and pop out. But it’s like, now I can’t even. I just- I’m like, I’m gonna play the game of life and the game of business and Yeah.

And that, yeah. Yeah. I just, just to put a little pin in that, uh, wrap it up nicely. I have 15,000 hours probably over the course of 20 years. So it’s not like, uh, yeah.

Uh, anyway, it’s good to clarify. Yeah. It’s good to clarify. I’m not like, I’m not like these bad posture RuneScape people, Josh. I’m slightly better than them.

Well, obviously, obviously. I mean, you can’t do what you’re doing with just like sitting in front of a computer and gaming. I mean, you’re obviously doing, doing lots, but we all have to have our outlets and our avenues, like, to not just work because there’s burnout. Like, you got to stop looking at the design. You got to come back with it and fresh eyes.

The colors start to be different colors, you know, and that the relativity of those colors completely shift. So I got to go take a walk, get in nature, rest sometimes, you know. Yeah. And then figure out how to like let it go too. Like, uh, I, you know, I’ll find there will be- I’m just over here like anybody who knows me, like, yeah, this is the most Alan thing ever.

I’m sure there are plenty of people like this, but I will obsess over a thing, you know, go figure, 15,000 hours in one video game. Like I play a video game from 1998, you know what I mean? That’s where I’m at in my life. But anyway, yeah. Uh, you just have to figure out how to like let it go.

You know, there’s this, uh, there’s this spectrum from 0 to 100% where 100% is like this perfect thing and 0 is like you just didn’t even start right, obviously. And I think that a lot of times the business case where you would like, where you want to launch is probably at 60 to 80% somewhere. Oh yeah. And I, I feel like, like physical shame, you know what I mean? I feel it hard if I even think about launching before 85.

Yeah. Which is not, you know what I mean? And like, I want to get it to 90, and, and I will, and I will do that. Uh, I won’t necessarily always do it on somebody’s dime, I’ll just stay up and do it. It’s like where you get, it’s where you get better.

You start carving it out a little bit, you know, doing those things and then they become more routine and you can reach farther on your baseline level of effort. But man, there’s just something about, like, I struggle with this personally where it, like, ’cause I’ve always resented this thing like, oh, it’s good enough. When somebody said that, I used to just get so bent outta shape. And like, oh, it’s good enough. Is it really good enough?

You know, like, no, it’s not. And I don’t know why I’m like that, but I know why you’re like that. You’ve already, you’ve already explained, you know, you’ve explained it just in this 30 minutes. I mean, you’re, you’re, you’re, you, you hold yourself to a higher standard and because you, you can reach it and you know you can, we’re up against the elements, time, resources, budget. That, you know, the deadline, because I get it.

Like for me, I’ve had to almost take it as a mantra, like good enough is good enough. Look, these 2 pixels, as important as they could be, it’s not going to make or break making sure that this gets out on time and the client is overall happy and not pissed off that we took an extra week, you know, and now like we missed the conference or whatever it is because I’m in my head. It sucks. But there’s a quote that’s helped me along with it along the way. I used to teach it at the Art Institute.

To every single class I would, I would have it, um, is that art is never finished. It’s just abandoned. We could work on something forever. In a way, that song, you know, like Bohemian Rhapsody, could have kept going. It’s a masterpiece, and they took a month to record it, but they could have taken 2 months and added some more crunch to a guitar or put a little splash here, there, whatever.

It never You just have to- all right, we’re going to move on to the next song now, you know? Yeah. And, you know, if you’re, if you’re looking at it from like a time budget perspective and you’re trying to maximize the impact that you have, knowing when to cut it off, you know, that like that last 10% of the project I was talking about, I love the last 10%. That’s where all the life happens, you know what I mean? And I want, I want to stay in that pocket.

But there’s that, that last 10% isn’t 10% of the time at your project. That last 10% could easily be 50% of the time of your project. Yeah. And if you don’t budget that correctly, yeah, it’s for sure the hardest. And, and you know, it’s always like, at least on our end, the stuff that ends up lingering to the end of the project is that, you know, that ends up in like a QA spreadsheet somewhere that you have to address.

Those are the things that you’re not already very talented at, otherwise they wouldn’t be there, you know what I mean? Whatever these little issues are. So they’re hard because you have to learn something to fix it, but sometimes they’re also hard because it’s just like very subjective, or you’re just trying to make sure everything matches everything or whatever. But you know, you could take that time and spend it doing new biz generation, you know, you could, uh, figure something else out to help your client that they need more than that extra 5% you’re going to throw at the thing because their volume of folks using the site that line up with their business case, like where they’re able to extract value out of people using their site, doesn’t, isn’t affected by that last 5%. It’s like kind of a vanity.

You know, but it’s still a cool vanity, you know what I mean? Like, that’s the part of me that still likes art. Like, I want to do that part, you know what I mean? Yep. But also, uh, I could help more people if I let it go a little earlier, you know?

Yeah. And yeah, and so that’s the- that’s what I’m trying to do for me, you know. And if I’m ever talking to anybody else that’s Uh, that I find to be limited by the same thing that I’m limited by in that way, I don’t, I don’t hesitate at all to tell them like, just let it go, man. Let it go, let it go a little bit and do the next thing. You’re getting your reps in, you’ll, you’re gonna, you’re gonna get it.

But I don’t do it for me. Like, why? You know what I mean? So I’m trying to practice doing it, doing it for me. Yeah.

Yeah. Well, it’s also like how you frame the narrative of why you need to do what you need to do. Like, okay, I’m gonna, I’m gonna let this one go at 95% or 90 or 80 because these people need more. Or this nonprofit sitting over here for me, like, thankfully, like embedding myself in some pretty cool pockets of industry, nonprofits being one of them. Like recovery being a new one where I just got an email last night, approved, board approved.

It’s like, yes, because this is like big push on helping people more in recovery, fills my soul. And now I can get to that, but it’s like, how much more of that can I get to and have our hands on to get it moving at least in the right direction? And then we could maybe phase it out. So like what I’m talking about is the narrative is okay, Phase 1 is this, and then we can expand that box a little in Phase 2. And also we can spread your cash flow over a little more to work within your budget so it’s not such a hit, you know.

So we can start to affect change at a deeper, greater level with our services and get you going in the right direction while we’re also now like able to, okay, we can build this other nonprofit’s thing too. Too. But it’s a tough thing because like you gotta like, when do I let it go? Also like how often do I, you know, chasing new business and now thinking about the family, uh, you know, they’re relying on us to keep these things moving. Our team also is relying on us to make sure that that flow does not stop of new work, even if we can get hung up on like, oh man, I want to like, I want to do these podcasts all day.

You know, I could do that. I could choose to do that, but then the money would stop flowing in a different way. Like, it’s tough. So talk to me real quick about recovery. What do you, what do you mean by that?

Oh, um, so like substance abuse. So, um, so, um, this organization that, um, I’ve connected with, uh, it’s awesome. You know, the person running it Uh, he has, he has gone through it and he’s done a lot of work to, you know, and he’s like 16 years in the clear and it’s just inspiring, you know, for myself, uh, going through it as well, like being inspired and uplifted by these people and these stories are really important to me. And, uh, and he’s doing such cool work and I was like Oh, well, I do this. And he was like, I was coming to meet with you about something else, but we can use you, uh, for these services.

And so they essentially, um, it’s like a Recovery Foundation, Recovery Epicenter, uh, something. There’s a couple foundations. But anyways, um, you know, they have one new website that they need to make and help managing another one, all around recovery. They have houses that people can go to like respite centers where it’s like 10 days. They can clean up, have somewhere safe to like get their stuff together, at least in that pocket.

And then there’s resources after that for their journey. And there’s so much involved in that that needs to be helped and shown, um, in various ways to the people who need it. To the people funding it and everything in between. Um, and so it’s like a really special, meaningful, you know, side of things. Also, I’m, I’m becoming embedded in the EMS world, which has been really cool.

So people who are literally out there helping people, saving lives like every day, these ambulance organizations and stuff, and they’re nonprofits and they’re helping people, and they have such little support on the tech side and websites and branding, you know, because they’re just doing their thing. They’re saving lives every day. That’s like an afterthought. But it’s like, if you actually tighten this up, you could affect greater change. It’s really cool to be like, find myself in these pockets where it’s like I’m fueled, I’m pumped up.

But I set that from the- from day one. I have a one-page manual for my business and it’s Create for Good is our mission. And we make sure that we’re we’re aligning properly before taking on work. Because there are projects that it’s just like, hey, that, that’s, I respect you, I appreciate that, but that’s not going to be a good fit. Our heart’s not going to be in it.

And there’s definitely greater people who can help you with that, that thing. But, you know, it’s cool to have found these pockets. So definitely a long-winded answer to your recovery question. Yeah, well, now I feel self-conscious about how long I talk. No, you’re the guest.

Yeah, it’s, uh, it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s cool, you know. I’m sure you feel it, that we get to- for me, like, that, that fuels me. Like, I get to pop into these different organizations, affect change, get them on a trajectory, work with them, get to know all these different people. And then, and then, like, the next hour I’m talking to you, and then the next hour I’m going to be talking to an EMS management association where all the chiefs go to, to to develop leadership, and that’s my next meeting after this. You know, it’s like I just pop in and out of these worlds.

So fun. Yeah, man, that does sound fun. And I, you know, I- to mirror that a little bit, I find that when I’m actually having conversations with people about, about the thing that we’re going to do, a lot of times I find that more fun than the thing. It’s like the thing is a, uh, The building is a very personal thing, you know? Yeah, like you kind of get in the- you kind of get in the pocket on whatever you’re building, and it just, it like scratches all of these itches that are very internal, you know?

Like, I’m an only child, so I don’t know, like, if my, if my perspective is all jacked up on this. Me too. Nice, I forgot about that. We really are similar. Yeah, so, so it’s like, you know, Uh, you get used to playing by yourself.

Yeah. And like, this probably one of the reasons why I obsess over things like StarCraft or drums or guitar, whatever it is. I’m just going in on it and it’s like, I know, I know I have like this intuition for how to make a game out of whatever it is I’m doing and to get like little, uh, little game shots of dopamine every time I just reach a little bit farther in the thing. It’s almost like I can’t do anything for fun, you know. But then whenever I talk to somebody, like talk to a client, talk to, you know, a peer, colleague, whatever, a lot of times those, those things are more- I could get more rewarding, like a more sense of a reward from a 1-hour-long conversation than I might be able to get out of like a a week-long grind on a thing that I’m passionate about that’s, that, that is a one-player game, you know?

Oh, I feel you so strongly on this point. Yeah, yeah. And then you’re over here talking about recovery, and, uh, my, my thing on that, uh, in that same vein, and I don’t, I don’t do any work with people like this, uh, professionally, but For me, it’s training, because, uh, historically, you know, recovery and mental health are kind of like two sides of the same coin almost. Sure. And, uh, historically, I have had, you know, 10 months on, 2 months off of, of being on mentally, you know what I mean?

Like, 10 months out of the year, I’ll be great. And then 2 months out of the year consecutively, you know, I’ll be borderline like burnout or just something, you know what I mean? Something that isn’t fully there. And, uh, I have found that every time I beat it, it’s with the same strategy, and that is physical training, not even just exercise, like just training for a long-term goal, you know. Yeah.

And, uh, and going hard. And like, I just going so hard that I get too tired to be like, you know, unmotivated or something, you know, like too tired to- I had, I had a friend that described it as being too tired to smile. You know, when you, when you get done, you know what I mean? Like you’re just so tired that you can’t even bring yourself to pull a smile out. And so, uh, the thing that has been filling my soul lately is, uh, being able to try to influence anybody who will listen to me that are like my friends, uh, to train and to get your, to get the, uh, the the physical right so that the, the mind will flow from it, you know what I mean?

Like, the body’s the soil, the mind is the flower, you know what I mean? We gotta- a lot of people don’t cultivate their soil, definitely. And, uh, that’s been like one of my main things lately. I just- because it, it reduces those- like, sometimes it used to be 4 months out of the year I’d have a, I would have a bad time, you know what I mean? And now I’m over here thinking, well, I got it down to 2 months, you know.

Uh, I bet the rest of it’s probably like a vitamin D deficiency or something like that, cuz it’s always winter, you know what I mean? Yeah. I’m over, I’m over here playing like Bill Nye the Science Guy. Like, yeah, I probably just need to get me a D3 supplement and just call it a day. Probably fix it.

Make sure I go to bed at the same time every time. Yeah. That sleep thing. But you’re, I mean, you’re onto it that, yeah, that like your body fuels your brain and your brain then communicates back to your body and your thoughts on, on how you proceed with the world, like, and engage with yourself and others. And that all feeds itself as this self-perpetuating motion machine.

But if you can catch it, you know, it’s like, it’s like a trajectory. You angle it just slightly, like 1% now. It’s like, okay, so you run a mile versus zero per day or once a week. That tiny little trajectory over time actually becomes great. So that 1% angle, really, once you get away from the epicenter, is actually a big shift.

And if you then turn it to- turn it up a little, then you’re really going in a, in a better direction. And that makes a big difference. It’s not always these huge things, but then you’re talking about goal setting, like training versus working out. Working out’s great. Like, to have a goal is also good.

Or like, for me, it’s like, I’m going to run this route, and I’m not going to do anything aside from that. That is my route, and that’s what I’m going to do. So when I leave my door, I’ve already ran 4 miles. It’s not the run that’s hard, it’s making the time and stepping out the door to run through the park to get- the run is easy at that point, you know. Yeah, man, running is a good one too.

I got into running when COVID happened. Yeah. And, uh, oh yeah.

Yeah, I, I perhaps drunkenly, who knows, committed to running a half marathon. We had a friend, you know, Aaron, sure. Oh, yeah, it’s ringing a bell. Yeah, he was an illustrator that was in my, in my class. Anyway, he was moving to California, and we were throwing him a going away party.

And one of my buddies, my other buddies was, uh, saying he was getting ready to do a marathon and typical me fashion, you know, uh, I was just like, yeah, I can do that. You know what I mean? And I was just being like border, probably belligerent, who knows. And, uh, uh, anyway, I committed to it, not realizing it. And then like a couple months later, we went on a camping trip in Northern Michigan.

He goes, so you training yet for this marathon? This half marathon? I’m like, Oh yeah, uh, no, no, I’m not. I didn’t, I didn’t realize we were doing that, actually. I thought we were just kidding.

And, uh, so I ended up, I ended up following a training program and went from not running at all to, like, I could at one point, I could run 18 miles, you know what I mean, in 3 hours. Yeah, I felt, it felt cool, uh, and then I hurt my foot and then I couldn’t play drums for a while and I got bummed out. So I was just like, yeah, I’ll stick to 5. 5 is good. Yeah, yeah.

It’s also an invest- like an investment. That’s the thing is like I get done with 4 miles, I’m like, I could run another 4, but like I gotta, I gotta like cook dinner. Like, yeah, keep going. Yeah, but dang, it is really good. Like the feeling you get when you’re done running, uh, it lasts a while.

It’s just like a very deep full body like, uh, peace Yeah, and it’s really hard to get that. Uh, you can get close to it with other things, but it’s always some- it’s always some kind of superficial, you know. Um, I’m like being vague about it, but like, you know, you can- you could like hit a vape and get some kind of feeling that’s like something kind of like that, but it’s not- it’s not even really the same thing at all, you know. Yep. Like white bread versus some kind of like A thousand-year-old sourdough starter that you just ate.

They’re just different things. Also the sustainability. Yeah, the sustainability of that thing, you know. I mean, for running also, um, you know, it’s crazy that we forget about the breath so often in drumming. Like, I was whole I just, I still hold my breath, hold my breath doing different things.

And when you’re running, you are breathing. You’re breathing fresh air. I mean, unless you’re on a treadmill inside, but like, you’re, you’re breathing really deeply and heavily for a consistent amount of time. And that’s really important. Actually, I’m wearing my wife’s shirt, Just Breathe.

Freaking love this shirt. Such a good reminder because at the, at the root of it all You can breathe through stuff. Your breath is so incredibly powerful and it fills your brain with oxygen. You’re- I’ve had such great ideas on my- in the middle of a run, I go, oh, like for this podcast before I had started it, I was like hashing out some ideas and it was just like, oh, you know, for my business during COVID because, you know, COVID was a dark time for me, you know, got laid off, went through a weird thing. And then popped out of it and here on the trajectory of Enable Creative, it’s like, whoop, turn that around.

But running was part of my COVID journey too before that, but then that solidified it. I, you know, you had posted on Facebook. When was that? I have it pulled up here. January 16th.

So not too long ago, but you made a pretty like bold post. Sometimes you never, you never know when you go online. I was thinking about this, like, we’re in such an interesting world where you go online and anything could be there. I mean, anything could happen- going around the moon, bombing people, friends changing their trajectory, starting business. What I mean, it is wild.

You check in and you go, yeah, it’s, it’s, it’s kind of a trip. Um, but I saw, I saw your post. You know, I don’t I’m not like on Facebook a lot. I kind of like post and ghost and kind of check in, check out. Um, but I’m glad that I saw your post because like for me and you, like, so I grew up in a Catholic family and I went to Catholic school till 8th grade.

I was, I was, I don’t know if you knew, I was like a server or an altar boy, you know, in the Catholic Church. I was like, I was deep in it. And then I went to public school and kind of started to to expand out of that bubble. And I was like, oh my gosh, so not everybody believes this. This is wild.

And then, you know, started to read books and things like that. I was like, oh, and getting all these perspectives, traveling really opened my mind. I go, okay, so people believe all sorts of things and they believe it very deeply. That’s really interesting. And so I’ve been fascinated.

My master’s thesis was literally called The Belief Books. Um, that was- started my journey in podcasting. But like, you Yeah, just to set it up a little. But I’ve always been fascinated with that conversation. Number one is because I feel it’s so healthy to have these conversations more, but it’s also so difficult to talk about deeply held beliefs that people have.

You know, like you experience this huge barriers that come up when you start to dive into someone’s core foundation of everything they believe to be true. From sometimes day one of their life or fundamental milestones in their, in their journey. And if, if you kind of like say the wrong thing or you, you, you take a wrong turn or whatever, it can be misconstrued really bad when really you’re just trying to talk and trying to understand, understand reality, understanding other people, understanding why, like, what the heck is going on in this wild universe that we live in. All right, don’t go anywhere. We’ll be right back after this quick break.

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We’re back. Thanks for sticking with us. Now back to the conversation. So you, you make this post,, and you’re like, a lot’s changed in 7 years, been on a journey that’s ultimately led me to Jesus. And I was like, whoa, you know, because we’ve had great, great conversations like over time knowing each other.

And I was like, whoa, wow, something, something happened. And I knew you had had a kid. And I feel that like when, when my first baby was born and then the second one too, it was, it was within milliseconds. Like something switched in me where I was like, oh, this is the most important thing in the world right now to me. Like, I would do anything, anything for this child.

There’s no- I mean, and I felt like my heart expanded infinitely. Um, and so, you know, I was like, oh, well, this is a great excuse to catch up because I’d love to know what happened. And so we’ve held it off until this moment, uh, and I know I’m doing a lot of setup So, but, uh, you know, I’d love to like just know like, hey, what, you know, what, what caused this? And I’d love to like understand that better because, you know, I know a lot of people now and all sorts of people believe all sorts of things. And, uh, for me, it’s just fascinating.

So I don’t know, the floor is yours now. And, but I know, uh, I know for me and I know for you, this is like such a beefy topic. Yeah.

Yeah, and you said post and ghost. I think I might steal that. I kind of like that, that, uh, phrasing for- Rogan, he says that. Yeah, he said that, and I, I connected with that. I go, yeah, yeah, I like that.

Yeah, I like Rogan. It’s probably not- he’s losing a lot of social capital, but I think he’s a good dude. Certainly. Yeah, at his core, you know, he’s, he’s doing his best and he’s a good interviewer, and- but yeah, I mean Nobody’s perfect. PoBuddy is nerfect, you know.

Yeah, uh, he’s got this thing that I think you and I both have, which is why we’re able to have these kinds of conversations, where it’s like, I, I want to be right, I want to be correct, but I don’t want to be perceived as correct if I’m not. It doesn’t- I don’t want to be right because of what it means about who I am. I want to be right, because if I’m, if I’m right, then more of the actions that flow from me will benefit me and others, rather than fewer. If I, if I’m, if I’m not right, my behavior won’t scale positively. You know what I mean?

Yeah. And, and if I’m talking to somebody, And this is the same way you are. It’s the same way Rogan is. This is why I like listening to him sometimes, you know, is at least a lot of times, you know, nobody’s ubiquitously on this, on this level. I’ll mess it up.

You’ll mess it up. But if somebody is correct and I’m not correct and they make that known to me for free, now I get to be correct. You know what I mean? I like it. It costs me nothing to let this old incorrect version of myself die and to be this new correct person that, that just received this knowledge.

You know what I mean? Yeah. And I think that a lot of people, the reason why it’s so sensitive to have a conversation of this kind of depth with a lot of people is because they don’t necessarily have that- I don’t know how you say, like, a priori, like they want to be correct for the sake of correctness and not necessarily for the sake of what it means about their identity and their position in the social marketplace that they are correct.

So yeah, that’s like, I won’t have this conversation with everybody. I like having it with people like you because it’s like, I know we’re on the same wavelength when it comes to wanting, like, searching for truth, you know. Sure thing, man. Yeah. And then, you know, I get on, I get on Facebook that day, and I rarely get on there.

And I- and actually, this happened during COVID I took like a 6-year break from Facebook, and it wasn’t like, uh, it wasn’t like this thing where, you know, oh, this is, this is not good for my mental health. I’m going to get off Facebook. You know what I mean? Even though that’s definitely true. And I would urge anybody listening to it to maybe examine how they spend their time on the internet.

Uh, and to perhaps spend less of it on there. But, uh, I stopped being on Facebook because I was going through a phase at the time, 7, 8 years ago. Where I would be, uh, like I had gotten very upset with what I saw in the world, which is a very common thing for a young person to go through, you know. And you start seeing things, uh, not add up. And when you’re, you know, I don’t know, a lot of people will kind of write, write this thing off, but I think there’s a lot of merit to it.

When you’re young, I really believe that more often than not, way more often than not, you don’t actually really know anything about how anything works. And so when you see things not working, it’s really easy to think that there’s an obvious reason that they’re not working, and the- and that that obvious reason not existing is a character flaw of the people who are responsible for making things exist, you know what I mean? For, for whether it be like government officials or just like anybody who holds authority in your life, basically, you know, when you’re a young person, you kind of go up against authority as you’re trying to figure out what your role is in it. And, you know, a lot of people will do that gracefully. And I feel like I did and didn’t, you know.

And, uh, because that would have been around the time period where, you know, you and I would be having pretty deep talks about all kinds of things- religion, anything, you know. And, um, and so you, you know me as a person who can be focused on truth, uh, right? And then, but also while I was contending with, uh, some of those things that brought me out of my emotional baseline- and this is, you know, 135-pound scrawny, malnourished, not eating well version of me that existed then, you know what I mean? Uh, which is why I love training and exercising so much. It just like, it really kind of gives you a sense of agency that maybe I didn’t feel like I had at the time.

And, and while I lacked that, the agency, uh, which would, I would consider to be a limiting belief that I had whenever I came up against, let’s say, things about, I don’t know, these like meta authority structures that we all operate in, in our society. Whenever I would see some of these things that didn’t seem to be congruent with what, in, in all of my wisdom as a 25-year-old, didn’t think that they were, uh, that, that, that they were designed very well, you know what I mean? Uh, and that that was a problem. That somebody has perhaps maliciously done or lazily let happen, I would get on there and I’d be, I’d be mean. I would be mean about things sometimes, and then sometimes I wouldn’t.

Like, you know, so I went- I’m kind of going to jump around a little bit, but I went 6 years without being on Facebook at all, and it was because I was embarrassed about being that way. It was acute that I became that way, like it wasn’t like a chronic thing, it just happened because I was probably, you know, it was whenever Trump was running the first time around and I was real upset about it, you know. Yeah, it’s frustrating, it’s frustration. Yeah. And so I acted very, I would say, unfairly to to people who, uh, didn’t deserve it, you know what I mean?

And, and I felt ashamed by it, and I stopped being on there only because of that. It wasn’t because, like, uh, oh, this will be better for my mental if I don’t get on here, you know what I mean? Yeah. And, uh, you know, I ended up realizing later that that was also a limiting belief. Like, I can’t just not be on social media.

Like, I cannot- I don’t have to, like, live my life on there, but I, like, it’s a, it’s a tool. Yeah, you know, and I don’t want to not have access to a tool just because of my, my perceived behavior. Like, for- and I say that because nobody was holding any of this against me, you know what I mean? This is all like- this goes back to the conversation earlier about the last 10% of the project where I’m like perhaps the only one working on the project that sees it, and I’m like holding myself to this standard. This same kind of thing.

People weren’t holding on to it, I don’t think. You know, I reached out to people and apologized, and they’re like, for what? No, you’re good, dude, whatever. You know what I mean? But, um, what a breath of air that always is, you know, making a simple call that’s been weighing on your mind for years, and someone’s like, dude, it’s all good, like, I’m glad we’re chatting.

I’m like, oh man, that was easy. Yeah, it really is easy. And it’s like, it’s not only like a weight’s been lifted, but it’s almost like you get like somebody under your feet lifting you, you know what I mean? Like, it’s like a- it’s like an opposite. Like, you kind of spring up a little bit.

But anyway, um, so I get back on there and I’m lurking for like- every now and then I’ll just get on there because I got- they had released a new feature called like Memories or something, and it was showing memories. And so I would- I would see these posts that I had made show up in memories. And it ended up only being like 5% of them that were like gnarly, where I thought I was really kind of out of pocket. Uh, and the other 95% of them were just typical, let’s just question it, you know what I mean? And I, and I was being completely respectful.

So it was like that 5% of these posts that were within basically a year block of time, they weren’t even the whole picture, you know what I mean? But I was just inflating it to be that. Yeah, I would see these memories pop up every day. I’d check them out and I’d be like, dang, look at this, look at this, man, like, that’s insane. Or I’d be like, oh yeah, I didn’t have that yet.

I’d say that now, you know what I mean? Yeah. And, uh, I remember I was at a concert maybe a couple years ago with our mutual friend Josh Miles. Oh yeah, and yeah, great. And he had a, he had a kid playing on stage singing.

Oh, and playing bass. And, uh, it was a metal, metal show, and I, I don’t, I don’t think Josh is like the biggest, the world’s biggest fan of metal. And I remember, uh, we had a little bonding moment about, about what the value might be in that community because I’m a big part of that community and it’s not, it’s not the, uh, at least it’s not always, most of the time it’s not the hyper-aggressive antisocial looking thing that it appears to be from the outside. And a lot of times it’s just a bunch of folks who are in some way alienated. You know, imagined or real, and they find some kind of fraternity, uh, in that community, and it’s a good way to, you know, let stuff out.

And so I was trying to like wax on it like, like it was a good thing, uh, and, you know, whatever it was. But while we were there, I pulled up my phone and was checking the, uh, memory you know, of the day, like, and I saw one that was me being wild a little bit, like one of the 5% that I didn’t like, you know. And I, and I’m not like ashamed of these things. I’ve, and a lot of it is because of this thing that I’m about to tell you about. I pulled it up and I showed it to Josh.

And I used to work for Josh for a couple years. Oh yeah, that’s right. Before I started Old Speak. And, uh, I showed him this thing on my phone. I was like, dude, look how dumb I used to be.

And dude, this dude goes, you mean look how far you’ve come, right? Whoa, dude. Like, hadn’t even considered it, you know what I mean? Because I’m very, uh, critical by nature, but not in a pessimistic way, just in like, yeah. Like a jobs-to-be-done way.

Like, we got to figure this out, you know what I mean? That’s why you’re a good designer. Yeah, perhaps. Yeah. And, uh, yeah, anyway, so, um, that kind of like freed me mentally, that perspective shift.

Yeah. Uh, and so I started kind of posting again. But the reason I quit posting is because I was, you know, it was like 3 in the morning in my basement, and I was, you know, perhaps, uh, not completely sober. And I saw a video pop up on YouTube that had a title that like rage-baited me, something about like the Marxist lie of white supremacy or something. I’m like Oh no.

So I, I click on this video and I start watching it, and even at the peak of my, uh, like, discomfort with the way things were going at the time, like 2016, 2015, I was still that thing that you are and that Rogan is where it’s like, I just want to know what the truth is. And I value- I respect people who do know. I respect experts, you know what I mean? I’m not a- I’m not a person that necessarily respects pundits, even though I do kind of like people who will just say whatever they think, even if it’s like- there’s a separate category of respect I have for that. But I have this like very high respect for people like professors, you know, people who know what they’re talking about, people who write books and have studied things for a long time and talk about the things not from an opinion but from, uh, not necessarily it means that it’s fact because you know how science is, but like, like, uh, they, they speak from a body of evidence.

This is what it looks like the evidence is suggesting. And whenever I see stuff like that, who am I to disagree with it, you know. Like, I’m gonna butcher this, but there’s a story at the beginning of 7 Habits of Highly Effective People. It’s like the epilogue. And the- in this story, there are two ships in a bay, and it’s nighttime, and they seem to be headed for each other because of their little spotlights or whatever.

They’re pointed- they’re pointed at each other. So somebody gets on the radio and says, hey, it looks like we’re gonna directly hit in the next hour and a half, so what you need to do is you need to turn your ship 30 degrees northwest, change your speed to this so that we don’t have an issue. And then the other person on the radio was like, well, actually, you need to change yours 30 degrees southeast and change your speed to this so that we don’t have this issue, or whatever, you know, some kind of whatever the thing is. Sure. And, uh, And then the person in the first ship that made the original call said, I’ll have you know, I’m such and such rank in this such and such branch of whatever, and I have this authority as an authority flex.

You need to do this. And then the second person says, well, we’re a lighthouse.

So it’s like, the lighthouse isn’t going anywhere, you know what I mean? You’re not, you’re not steering a lighthouse out of the way. And so, uh, I guess I bring that story up first off because I became fascinated with what the lighthouses are in life, you know, like I want to know what all these little invisible lighthouses are, but also I don’t want to be a fool who runs into a lighthouse that I know is there. Uh, and that’s why I like, why I respect experts. You know, whenever an expert has an- and I know that there are experts who have competing opinions or whatever, and I can, I can play in that nuance as well, it’s fine.

But I watched this video and it’s like the guy knew- is Jordan Peterson. Oh, okay. Yeah. And, and he basically dismantled a lot of the thoughts that I like- overly emotional, not necessarily rational thoughts that I was having at the time were a common set of thoughts that a lot of people had. And he basically dissected them enough to where I was like glued to this video after 10 minutes.

And it was like a 90-minute video. I had no idea who this guy was. I had no idea about any of his controversy that was around at the time. Mm-hmm. And, uh, It, it had me change my tune so much because basically the premise of the video at the end, like the, the thing that the takeaway, or at least what I took away from it, was that in our imperfect and un- like, like non-expert pursuit of doing good, it is very common that overzealousness plus a lack of expertise will actually create negative outcomes.

And it won’t do the thing that’s good. And so it resonated with me because I thought that I was doing good by getting on the internet and complaining about, you know, I would call it virtue signaling now, like complaining about a thing that I thought wasn’t good. And like, I’m actually a good person. I wouldn’t do this. But who knows, I’m not there.

I’m not in a position of power. I have no idea what I would do, you know.

And, and anyway, it got me to realize, oh, I’m, I’m that right now. And I hated that because I’ve always been like academically minded, you know what I mean? I’ve always thought I was rational and I had this acute like spin-up of being very emotional about like, I get very angry about these topics, you know. And I realized I was not contributing any good at all. And it like shocked me.

And I got off the internet for 7 years basically, or social media anyway. And, uh, anyway, uh, I get- I ended up getting back on there and I like using it now. And I wrote that, I wrote that post that you’re talking about just spontaneously. I wasn’t expecting to. I just got on there and it said, what’s on your mind?

All of a sudden I just felt it, you know what I mean? I’m like, here it is. Yeah. And, um, I don’t know, that’s basically, that’s basically it. That, that lighthouse story is what is probably like the, uh, secular underbelly of, of the belief system that I have now.

Like, I ended up being fascinated with what these lighthouses were and the longer I investigated it over the course of like 5 years, you know, it got closer and closer to where like, oh, I know what it is now. It’s just whatever God is, is what these things are, you know. And so then I was just walking around basically like, I would say, maybe like functionally Jewish, you know, like I was believing in, uh, in like Old Testament God philosophically. Not necessarily like I don’t believe that the Earth is 6,000 years old or anything like that, you know what I mean? Sure.

Uh, and, you know, Jordan Peterson, who I had grown to respect a tremendous deal, had all these lectures about, uh, God and the Bible, Bible stories, and I always specifically avoided them because I’m like, I don’t want to think this guy’s dumb. I already respect him so much, I don’t want to think he’s dumb. So I didn’t listen to him for like years, and, uh, then I listened to him, and he’s basically like linking stories in Genesis to psychological truths. And he’s a psychologist, so it’s like, uh, it’s- he’s speaking from a, uh, a perspective that’s built upon expertise, even though you can’t really necessarily be an expert on the psychology and the Bible necessarily because it’s probably relatively subjective, but I started listening to that stuff while I was working out, and instead of like listening to death metal, you know what I mean? And I’m realizing like, dang, I can actually get motivated by these stories of love.

I don’t have to be so angry all the time, you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, it has a place. I love it. Yeah, yeah, you and I are- but it has its place. Yeah.

And I still like getting angry, man. I’ll tell you what, it’s like, it’s fun to get angry and grind out a heavy set of 3 or something like that. Mm-hmm. Uh, to like a really gnarly breakdown and just like get dizzy when you’re done. You set the plates down and you’re like, oh yeah, I love it.

But, uh, anyway, man, I started listening to that stuff and I started to see a lot of merit in the book, the Bible, in a way that I never used to. Right. And I wasn’t Catholic like you growing up, but I did, I did get my ass beat by a paddle from a pastor. For playing Pok mon Yellow because they evolve, and it was of the devil. Oh my gosh, I was in a daycare.

Yeah, and, uh, anyway, that was actually probably the start of my atheism, to be honest. I was like, what, I can’t play Pok mon? It’s out of here, throw this whole thing out of here. That’s great. But, uh, yeah, anyway.

Uh, I started reading the book and I could probably talk about that for, for way too long, but it just, it like changed me. You know what I mean? Like just reading the book open-mindedly for the first time, it was, it was, um, unconscious. It was, I didn’t mean to, I didn’t, uh, expect it.

But whatever. I mean, I guess people probably call it the Holy Spirit in that, in that realm. Mm-hmm. They probably, they probably call it that. I mean, I still have never been to church, so like there’s- I grew up in a church daycare, but I’ve never really been to church, especially as an adult.

So I’m not super familiar with the community, but I read the book, you know, and when I read the book, I experience things that are like significant phenomenon, you know what I mean? And it makes me- it like ties- I see patterns get tied together in ways that seem to just- it reveals to me like this system of like these invisible lighthouses that I’ve, that I’ve alluded to. And I just see them clearly, a lot of them. You know, I don’t see all of them. I’d like- I want to spend the rest of my life trying to figure out what they all are, you know what I mean?

I’m fascinated by it. But yeah, man, I’m telling you, something about it changed me. Like, I listen to worship music now, unironically, you know what I mean? Like, you saw me make a post the other day about probably about Nickelback being the best band ever. Like, oh yeah, I did see that.

It’s typical tongue-in-cheek stuff, but like, but I love, I love Nickelback. I’m not even joking about it. And I think that a lot of people- I think a lot of people- it’s like a- I think a lot of people are trained to not like things by society, and they don’t- like, Nickelback is objectively a good band, you know what I mean? Like, sure, they make a- they make- yeah, but people can- but like, yeah, I don’t buy it, but like I look at Nickelback almost like I look at God or something. I just think that people are- there’s ideas that are basically memed as not good, and people accept the meme because it becomes so, uh, ubiquitous in our culture, whatever the meme is.

Like, people have been joking about Nickelback being awful for a long time, and I- it’s probably because they make the same song over and over again is what people think. But whatever it is, the same song is- it’s like, it’s, it’s what average people, whatever that means, like a lot of just regular people, they, they feel these things, these- they feel these songs deeply. Yep. And, and I think that, uh, you know, being able to publicly like Nickelback or publicly like God or something, you know what I mean? I know this sounds stupid, but like, uh, being able to publicly appreciate these things is almost like a conquering of this old self that I had that was caught up in, uh, image around some of these topics, you know what I mean?

And I- and for whatever reason, I resented Middle America folks, uh, where I come from, you know, uh, for really no good reason other than that I just thought it like, well, if they believe in this stuff or they like this simple music, they must be simple. And that’s a bad thing. And now I’m like, nah, dude, actually, like, it might even be the ideal thing. Uh, from design, simple is good, you know, the simpler the better in many cases. Or, you know, keeping it simple, there’s a re- there’s a reason why it resonates.

But also, you know, with your- when you’re talking about music, It’s a great analogy, maybe makes this discussion easier because, you know, I, I have since not subscribed to anything. Even when I was in Catholicism, just something didn’t connect. I was just always confused. It just- I couldn’t- I tried so hard to like read it, to understand. I, I don’t even know how many hours logged in that world I have had.

And even since, because I’ve watched probably more debates than 99% of the human population, and I can confidently say that, um, because I’m just craving it, you know, like you were saying, like there’s an itch and we’re scratching it one way or another. Like, where’s the truth? Who’s right? Who’s incorrect? Where, where are the holes?

How can I be more correct and find truth more? And like, when you’re talking about music and Nickelback, you know, we were talking about metal, like, there are times for everything, for all these different vibes that you’re catching or moods that you’re trying to capture. Because like, for me, sometimes instrumental music is perfect. I find myself listening to instrumental piano and softness and zone music so much more because I need to I need to be focused and calm. But then metal absolutely has its place.

Hard rock is like my life. Like, they all have their place, and nobody, nobody in that world, from folk to metal and everything in between, country- nobody’s wrong. Nickelback is not wrong. Megadeth is not wrong. Nickel Creek is not wrong.

You know, like, they are all right. You know, and, and through my journey of like, it’s becoming a recovering Catholic, or however people describe it, is like, because I was really mad, um, when I popped out. I was like, I just felt not betrayed, but like, man, like, I didn’t get the full picture. Other people believe other stuff, and there’s so much out there. There’s 10,000 religions.

I was like, how are you guys so, so stern that you’re so convinced that this is the thing and you’re unwilling to question it? And it just, that really, you know, so I was like really deeply looking for answers and why, why that is. And I, you know, I sort of get it, but, but as it’s matured, I go, well, there are reasons for that. It’s like the music, this music, I’m so glad you got here. Because it is almost a perfect analogy.

Because for, in my opinion, everybody is wrong. We are all finding these lighthouses. And honestly, that lighthouse might look like a lighthouse for a while. And someone could actually convince you that that’s like it, like that lighthouse, like that first ship. Okay.

It’s moving. That other lighthouse claims it’s a lighthouse. Well, did that ship ever actually get to the shore and figure out that that lighthouse was actually a lighthouse, or was it just claiming to be a lighthouse and it convinced that ship to steer away, but it’s really just a bigger ship that’s stationary and anchored? You know, we could, we could go through this all, but music is such a great way because there’s nuance of like, well, some things just fit people more, and these are sort of tools.

Like music. Metal has its time for me in the car before work, pumping me up, or letting it out after work or during a run. Or it could be the opposite. It could be a podcast, or it could be, it could be soft music that needs to calm me down. Or sometimes to calm down, I need something to pump me up.

So all these different tools and methods and belief systems that can get us where we feel resonates with us more than something else. And in that way, everybody is- can be wrong and right at the same time. You know, talking about that, which I’ve grown to respect and like, let people be. My hang-up is when it’s used as a tool to control or to do, to do harm. That’s where it’s like, all right, you’ve, you’ve gone to the line and now crossed it.

So why, what are we doing now? You know, and that’s not everybody, you know, but it’s hard to also look at that and go, are people who are part of it responsible for bolstering people who use it to do harm? You could look at it like politically or even sports fans, for instance, like we won the game. Oh, I’m going to burn down this house because we’re so pumped up because of that. And it’s like this crowd of people and they’re just hyped up or they’re really pissed off at a, at a loss.

And like that crowd can lead people to, I don’t know, maybe I’m veering away now to too many analogies. But so like, I feel like there’s two sections of this. There’s like reality and like literal truth. And then there’s usage of these tools for our own truths to navigate this incredibly complex and difficult, challenging world that we’re all trying to figure out. Nobody has the answer.

Anything in there resonate with you? Uh, yeah, I feel like I definitely used to think that way, you know what I mean? Uh, and I can, I can, uh, pick- there’s a particular thing that you said that I wanted to like pick apart a little bit. Great. We have, uh, I feel like we have a tendency to judge ideas by the people who hold the ideas.

And, and, you know, I think Christianity is a, a big thing in that. To even back, if we go to Nickelback, it’s like another one of those things, like the idea that Nickelback is good. Well, who has that opinion? Normies, you know what I mean? Who doesn’t have that opinion?

Really cool musicians in this counterculture movement that you’re a part of, like metal people, you know what I mean? Like, and a lot of times our opinions on things are maybe unnecessarily or unfairly influenced by the people who claim to have to, like, to be a student of those opinions or like a disciple of those opinions or whatever. So let’s jump on Christianity for a minute. I think that The teachings of Jesus are pretty clear about how you should treat people and what, what is the pathway for you to achieve Christian salvation. And it’s, it’s not anything that you do.

It’s, it’s like by your faith that you accomplish these things. It’s not by your works is what the, the main, like one of the main takeaways that I take from the book anyway, you know what I mean? I don’t, I don’t go to church and listen to people tell me about it because like you were saying earlier, they might not be a lighthouse. I’m actually very worried about that. That’s why I don’t go.

It’s not because I’m lazy or because I don’t want to be a part of community. I love people. I want to be a part of community. It’s because I don’t know if they’re a stationary giant I don’t know, you know what I mean? But I know what the book says, and to me, as somebody who can read, you know, like, it feels relatively obvious, you know?

It doesn’t seem to have to be like this crazy thing where like, oh, what does that mean? For some reason I get it, you know what I mean? Sure. And, uh, that might be another faith not works thing. I’m not saying I get it because I I’m smarter or better than somebody.

The whole premise of the thing is that we are all- we all fall short of the glory of God, so to speak. We all are not good in a damnable way. Everybody, every single one of us. And even a lot of times, even when we’re doing things that are good or that we think are good, we’re not necessarily doing them for good reasons. Sometimes there’s like a perhaps some kind of vanity associated with it or something.

And because that’s seemingly an axiom, like if I’m looking at this scientifically, I think axiomatically nobody’s good but God. I believe it, you know, that like God is technically the- I like if it’s algebra or something, it’s like the variable that equals perfection, you know. Yeah, if you just want to look at it like that, like we’ll look at it secularly. And it’s, it’s a, uh, like a, like a constant, so to speak. It’s its own thing, like pi, you know what I mean?

There’s nothing else that’s pi. Pi is pi. God is God. Everything else falls short of that, which is- would be you, me, everybody. And because I believe that’s true, and I think it’s reasonable to believe that that’s true, I have to then expect that everybody, no matter which philosophy they claim or what their expertise is or whatever, I have to assume that they’re all going to fall short commonly and spectacularly in front of me, perhaps even more often than not.

And I have to expect that I’m going to do that. And so if I’m walking around and I’m seeing somebody who claims to be Christian doing what might be able to be easily interpreted as non-Christian things, to me, that’s par for the course. Of course they’re going to be like that. If they were good, they wouldn’t need a savior. They wouldn’t need Jesus or the concept of Jesus or whatever that that variable is.

But they aren’t good. Nobody is. So of course they’re going to go out there and do all of these silly things that don’t seem to be what is being talked about. You know, like the Catholic Church in particular, they have a, a very dark track record of child abuse. Oh, is that so?

Yeah. You know, and, and it would be, it would be very easy. And I think a lot of people do this, although I, although to a degree I think it’s intellectually lazy. They would write off the philosophy of Christ, the story of Christ, that the, even the, even the hard evidence, like, like literally this person existed and was crucified. Borderline unanimously agreed upon by people who’s like historians.

Those kinds of things will get thrown out the window, right? Because of a liar’s, an evil person’s association with a terrible act. Same thing with, you know, Donald Trump, for example. There will be a lot of things that this person says that, that do have merit. That’s just the nature of anybody who’s trying to play the game.

They’re gonna- and if they’re achieving any kind of success, at least some percentage of the thing, of the things that they say, are going to have merit. That’s just part of it. Right now we could argue about what percentage of the things that he does and says have that merit. It might be less interesting, but what is interesting to me is that there are things that he says that would have merit that get completely disregarded because those kinds of things can’t, uh, we can’t, we can’t accept anything good from this person because of all of the perceived negative things that they do. Well, what if somebody else holds that opinion that isn’t Donald Trump?

What if somebody that you do respect holds that opinion? Well, a lot of times what’ll happen is people will lose respect for that person for even just sharing the same opinion. Yeah. And I think that this is some kind of like logical fallacy. I wouldn’t know the name of it, but it feels to me like a pothole in the road of thinking that people tear their suspension up in when they drive over.

And it just seems like, you know, that we should be training ourselves to see the world through the lens of ideas. As separate from the people that hold the ideas. And we can do this very intuitively almost all the time, but we can’t do it for certain topics. Christianity is one of them. Often political leaders on either side of the aisle are another version of those things.

Yeah, you could- like with politics, for example, it’s like imagine a circle with a line drawn straight through the center. At north and south, and the left is red and the right is blue. You could rotate that circle exactly 90 degrees to where red is on the bottom and blue is on top, and then take that middle line, pull it out to where they all blend to be purple, and then you put the line back in and force some kind of like filtering system where you get- put the line back in north and south again, and You’re going to have like red on the left again and blue on the right again, but it would be a different mixture of ideas. Like these guys share a lot of the same ideas all the time, but we look at it as though they don’t. Often we look at it as though they don’t share any ideas.

Christianity is, is kind of like that with like a bunch of other religions. There are a lot of religions that say a lot of the same things that Christianity says. You’ll find a lot of the moral teachings in some of these other religions. You’ll also find them in the Bible. Mm-hmm.

Well, you know, we have, we have people in other popular religions that will do heinous things in the name of their religion, just like Christians will do. But maybe statistically not on the same level, both in, in volume and intensity. But they’re going to have things in their religion that overlap this with this other one. And, you know, it- with Christianity, Christianity is going to have overlap with like Islam, for example.

I think that it’s really common for people to throw away any of the merit that Christianity would have, but not be willing to throw away any of the merit, that same merit that, uh, Islam would have. Even though you might be able to make, uh, a reasonable data-backed claim that, uh, if, if you were one to subscribe to that kind of logical fallacy where you could throw out a philosophy based off of the people who believe in it, Islam would be a very easy one to throw out, just like Christianity is for a lot of people, you know what I mean? Yeah. And but that doesn’t happen at the same level. It like, it does in intellectual circles, you know.

You know, it’s like we both follow a lot of folks, academic-minded atheists that, uh, don’t have very many nice things to say about any Abrahamic religion, but particularly Islam. You know. Sure. And, uh, I mean, I guess the point I’m trying to make with all of it is like the, the belief itself, the truth in whatever the thing is itself, has almost nothing to do with the people that practice it, in my opinion. Like, is it Is the thing right or is it not right?

Those are the guys showing- the guy showing up at a funeral with a sign talking about God hates so-and-so or whatever, you know. Oh man. Yeah, like, does he? Because it’s not- it’s not like- it might not be what the book says, you know. There’s, there’s like semantic nuance to it.

Now, does it mean like, you know, some- on that same vein You’ll have people who say, well, God, God loves everybody. Maybe he does. So that means he approves all things. I don’t know, it doesn’t say that anywhere in there that I’ve seen. I see it specifically saying a lot of things that he doesn’t approve of, but it doesn’t mean that he hates the individual, right?

And to me, that ties back to that axiom we were I was, you know, throwing out there about how everybody’s imperfect. It’s like we’re all going to fail. And in this philosophy, and I’m sure there are others in the world that, you know, have this same kind of archetypal pathway to redemption, perhaps. But in the Christian world, so far that I know, and I’m not, I’m not like an expert, there, there’s only one sin, you know, quote unquote sin or whatever, that is irreconcilable or irredeemable, which would be blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, I guess. I don’t even really particularly know what that means.

I’m not an expert. But almost any other thing that you do that, you know, you would look at as bad or maybe bad, there’s a story in the book of somebody doing that thing and receiving some kind of mercy, you know what I mean?

And I kind of feel like that, that mercy, that, that ability to, to receive or to be there to be given mercy for whatever thing that you do to be, I don’t know, like, it’s, it’s hard for me to reason that out of the good thing, like the, the good thing to think or be like, you know, like, uh, in the book we’re called to forgive others and ourselves. And if we don’t do either of those things, then we’re not worthy of forgiveness. And then, and then you could put that here and then you, and you could go over here into maybe your neck of the woods with somebody like Sam Harris who talks about how we don’t really have free will. And yeah, and to just succinctly put his free will argument, I’m gonna, I’m gonna attempt to describe what his free will argument is. I think that it’s basically because you have no agency over the inputs in your life at all, from basically 0 to 18 in our society, you have all your neural pathways being formed around things that are outside of your control.

And your neural pathways are the, uh, mechanisms in your brain from which your behavior flows when you’re on autopilot. And so if you do have any semblance of free will. It, it’s only when you’re not on autopilot, and then to the degree that you can fight against this vast vastness of, of programming that you have from not having any agency over your programming at all, you know. Uh, that, that would, I think, be Sam Harris’s free will argument, why we don’t have any free will, because we We’re basically programmed in a way that we can’t control. And if we were to have free will, it would be very limited in scope.

Feeling a little goofy because I kind of forgot how, like, why I brought up Sam Harris. Do you remember why I brought up Sam Harris? Because, uh, you’re talking about free will, um, in regard- I, I was trying to- because it was, it was about forgiveness. That’s right. You can take this, this underbelly philosophy of you should be able to forgive all kinds of people, including yourself and others.

And you can apply it secularly to this viewpoint that Sam Harris has. There are, and I think it’s really, this is the kind of empathy that I think a lot of people, particularly left-leaning people, are able to do. They excel at this. They, they see people as a product of their environment. And whenever they do things that are negative, like bad, maybe perhaps criminal things, they’re looked at with a sense of mercy.

Because they perhaps, like, perhaps correctly recognize that their environment has shaped them in a way that’s hard for them to have enough agency to fight. Now they can, they can fight it. I feel like have enough free will to be able to choose to fight those things. But if I’m, if I’m taking Sam Harris’s view on it, or that kind of view where your free will is not as free as you think it is because of your programming, it’s, it’s easy to see how somebody does deserve mercy. Not necessarily deserves to not be held accountable, but they deserve to be able to be redeemed because of the nature of, of how we are behaviorally.

We are products of our environment to, to a non-trivial degree. You know, and I just feel like, because like to maybe zoom back out a little bit, because, because that forgiveness thing is such a, uh, foundational element of the philosophy and I just keep seeing how it gets lined up everywhere, all across the board. It like ties on, it like builds directly onto that previous axiom of nobody’s perfect. Okay, it’s true, nobody’s perfect. We, we established that.

And then it’s also true that in this state of imperfection, uh, that people develop unconscious programming that yields imperfect outcomes. So they perpetuate imperfection. It’s just gonna happen. And, and the ideal thing would be I think that we forgive these people, or we- let’s like, not necessarily not hold them accountable. I don’t want to get into this thing where it’s like it doesn’t matter what we do.

It definitely matters what we do. Uh, but I just see, I see so much truth to what I’m reading in the book across all angles of things that it like, it, it feels to me unignorable, you know, in a way that is kind of like borderline even just destroying my previously like material viewpoint, you know what I mean? Like, I’m starting to, you know, believe more in like a spiritual realm of existence than I ever have been able to tolerate, you know. Like, I don’t have to- I don’t see everything as like only that which can be observed is the only, like, the only thing that exists. Yeah, you know, like, if you look at the visible light spectrum, it’s probably a good example.

Like, there’s all kinds of light, we can only see some of it. Yep. You know what I mean? We can, we can observe a lot more through tools, but what can we not observe? Surely there’s something that we can’t observe.

Surely there. And in fact, you know, you probably would be on board with this. It might be 99% of everything that exists we don’t have the ability to observe or more. Mm-hmm. You know, like the amount that we could possibly know is, is probably so it probably dwarfs what we could know, like the, the amount of knowledge that everybody has.

It’s probably almost like the size of the universe compared to one grain of sand somewhere. Yeah, I would agree with that statement. Yeah, yeah, the perspective is great, you know, and how you’re framing it, um, you know, I, I line up with a lot of it, like, to be, to be completely honest, especially for me, like, at the end there, you know, for me opening up Um, you know, still, I don’t subscribe to anything in particular. Um, I have, I have my reservations on just, just like, uh, why I don’t subscribe to Scientology or something like that. But, um, you know, like, the- what is the universe?

And people can call that God. Like, what is greater than us? Like, you and a community like that is- that could be defined as God. It’s greater than me. And that’s really, really powerful.

And then you expand that into the entire universe. I mean, we’re just talking about this universe. What was there before the Big Bang? What’s going to be after, after that? You know, I mean, I think it’s a bubble.

I just think it’s bubbles, um, and constant infinity, infinity, infinity. Like, you know, our- the Big Bang is, uh, is the black hole of another universe, essentially. That’s my, that’s my theory. Not my theory, but that’s one that’s like just sticks. But like, there is so much in there, like energy in the shared of like this air that we don’t see.

But like, even between us, like, I’m, I’ve been looking in your eyes for going on 2 hours now. And like, we have a connection and it’s through light waves and internet connections and air and connection and energy that is way greater than us. And like, even the people who make that technology can’t possibly fully understand it, but they understand these important components of it that, whoa, it works! There’s light! Holy moly!

Well, that worked cool, you know, but like, there’s so much that we don’t know and, uh, that can be really powerful. It can be really intimidating as well, you know, and I, there, there’s so much to explore there, but, you know, I guess, um, it’s, it’s important that you led like, like with that you found, um, some things with Jordan Peterson and like it connected with you, picked up a particular book, you know, and it’s interesting because, you know, you think about the Jordan Petersons of other religions. You know, and you know, you could connect with those and you go, what if, what if it was, what if it was Islam? Islam. Because it’s interesting, my wife’s from Turkey and absolutely beautiful people.

You know, there’s most people are trying to do good. It’s, it’s people who really ruin it for others. You know, like why we have to go through airport security so intensely. You know, I mean, and you could argue that that’s a good or bad thing, but, you know, that shifted things because people took it the wrong way or took something so literally that they took into their own hands to control others and to say, look, we are right and we’re going to kill you because it’s what we believe so strongly in what it says. And that’s, it can go so many different ways.

It’s so interesting how intense people can get with, you know, indoctrination is so powerful. But going back to, you know, my wife being from Turkey is one thing that’s different is never- we’ve been married, um, 10 years. I’ve been to Turkey multiple times. I interact with her family weekly. Never ever have they ever asked me to read what they have, convert, go to a mosque, whatever that is.

Not once, not one time. I really respect that because it’s like, man, like, you- because it’s just like held on to them, but they do their thing. And then you look at it, right, and someone else talking about Islam, and you could literally- you see the absolute opposite. Where I’m actually going to kill you because you don’t believe in that. I’m going to kill many people because this is the way.

And you like, look at that spectrum. It’s- that’s about as absolutely large of a spectrum as you can get. It’s just such a powerful mechanism to effect great change. Like within yourself, you have transformed in a positive way with the word of like Jesus. And there’s such great stuff in there.

Like, I’m a fan. I’m a fan. Um, you know, and like, there’s, there’s merit in so much stuff, you know, um, that it’s just like the music. I, I’m really glad we got there because for me, you know, I guess as designers and visual, like analogies and metaphors are like everything to me. I feel like I think in them.

Most of the time, because then it helps me scale something down, like the universe or whatever that might be. But music in this conversation is really important because nobody’s right and nobody’s wrong. You’re only wrong- people, people talk about the Golden Rule as like, oh, that’s so great. And it is to a degree. Carl Sagan, actually, who is pretty much one of my, like, top heroes, because I feel like he really was at a great sweet spot of skepticism and science, but understanding and communication.

I don’t know how deep you got into Carl, um, Sagan, but deep enough to have watched Cosmos, and I, I have his Pale Blue Dot book. Oh yeah, I recommend The Demon-Haunted World, um, that it’s, uh, the subtitle is Science is a Candle in the Dark. And he crushes it in that book, but he talks about the silver rule, which I feel like is so much more important, especially now. Actually, it’s been that way forever, but the golden rule is do unto others as you would do, do, and to have them do unto you. Correct.

Right. So like, it’s an act. I’m going to do what I feel I would want people to do to me, but really that’s the problem. Is because I’m now taking this belief structure and I’m harming people because I believe it so strongly. And I would like that done to me because I believe this so strongly.

So it can actually inflame an action. And the silver rule is don’t do unto others what you don’t want them to do to you. So in my experience with, for instance, Muslim faith, They, they do not want to be converted to, for, for sake of argument, Christianity or Catholicism. So therefore they’re not converting me. And that’s a beautiful thing because we can just live.

We’ve had great conversations. We love life and it has been wonderfully fantastic, mutual. Yet we could believe or not believe two separate things in the world and get along fantastically. And that, that lack of action, I feel like, is so hard. It’s actually harder, but it’s so much more powerful because now I am not in, in introducing my will or what I believe to be true on someone else.

Rather, I can stick to- I can, I cannot do that. I can withhold it. It’s the same with when we’re talking about recovery and substances. It’s so interesting that not smoking or drinking or doing a drug is so much harder than doing it. And you’re literally doing nothing, right?

Not, not picking up a beer and drinking it is easier. It’s less effort. Than to drink it, yet it’s so much harder. And how interesting is that? But that solution, you’re- that other person, in regards to the silver rule, is, in my opinion, better off because now we’re living in peace.

Like, there’s harmony. And now, now it’s- now it’s run away. There’s 10,000 religions or whatever. There’s so much belief structures out there that nobody is going to get on the same page ever in humanity. I mean, okay, that’s a, that’s a big blanket statement, but I- we’re going in a million directions, and everybody even within the same belief structure has their own beliefs within that structure.

Like, you are very unique. You don’t go to church, but you believe in this book, and that’s, that’s actually why you, you’re able to have these nuanced view and your particular view. If you started to go to church, you would start to adopt what that minister and that set of pastors preach and focus on and things like that, and you’d start to adopt that just inherently, you know. And but I wanted to point out the Silver Rule, um, in this context because like, like for me it’s just kind of been taking a, a step back, you know, and, and reflecting on like, you know People do like Nickelback. People love Nickel Creek and everything in between.

And both are, both are good and both are right. And also both are wrong. And I guess that’s, if both are right, then that’s probably the glass half full way to look at it because no one’s wrong, but also no one’s right. Yeah, no one’s wholly right. Yeah, they can be, they can both be right.

Maybe they’re not wrong, but they’re not entirely right. It’s probably what it is. Yeah. Yeah. But the more important thing is that, like, those, those, those music, that, that, that music, no one’s wrong.

Metal has its place. Instrumental, beautiful piano has its place. Both have their place in the same day for me. Mm-hmm. And, and, and pull different weights and do different things to me.

And they’re both right. At particular moments. Yeah, we just get so focused, so tribal. And people look at- like you were talking about that circle and flipping it upside down, and I always- I’m not that visual, but I’m going to use that now because we’re visual. Um, you know, I just like it.

We are, regarding like politics, we’re so much more alike than we are different. You know, at the end of the day, do you care about your family? For the most part, yeah, most people do. Do you want a house? Do you want shelter?

Do you want food and safety and happiness? Most people would check the box on those 5 things. You know, we can all get along with that. All right, cool. Now we’re just talking nuance.

Oh, the tax code. This should be 10%. No, it should be 20%. All right, let’s meet in the middle on 15%. Was that so hard?

Does it have to be so hard? But no, now all these things get in the way because we’re so locked in to like, I’m right and you’re wrong, or this or that. And, and, and now I’m like you- like you said when you were talking about like, be- I, I saw it as like you freed yourself being able to say something about Nickelback or Jesus. Like, you freed yourself from the growth that you’ve done regardless of whatever direction you are. Like, you went.

That is freeing and, and, and, and authentic and vulnerable. And you are more likely to affect positive change within a collaborative environment of humanity than not because of that. And that, in my opinion, is really powerful.

I commend you for it. Yeah, I appreciate it. Yeah, thank you. Yeah, I think part of my desire to kind of conquer that and get back on there and expose those things was precisely because I wanted to be free of it. You know what I mean?

Like, you and I both value free speech. It’s been a thing that we’ve historically come to care about a pretty decent amount by name. And, uh, It, you know, it’s a right, but it’s also, you know, we have plenty of rights that we don’t necessarily act on, and I want to act on it, you know what I mean? And like, I wasn’t acting on it because I had put myself in timeout for doing sometimes what I thought was a bad job of acting on it, you know what I mean? Yeah.

Yeah, uh, but to be able to act on it again is- it’s like, you know, the only way connections happen almost is because like our thoughts are almost like Velcro to other people as we’re all just kind of floating through, you know what I mean? And, and if I’m just by myself in my room not sharing what I think, I’m not going to be able to build any community. And if I don’t share what I think and I only listen to what other people think, I’m not going to be able to hold on to any sense of self necessarily. Like, I’ll just be whatever my environment tells me to be, which is also not necessarily a very free thing. So, hmm, yeah, I guess that’s kind of maybe some of the underbelly of why, why I even care to share some of that stuff is because I feel like it freed me to go, you know, be real again.

Because you know me as a, as somebody who’s willing to do this. And then it’s that, and then it stopped. It was like, uh, you know, whatever. Anyway, so I’m there again. It feels nice.

It feels freeing. Uh, I do- you did kind of remind me of something there at that last couple, that last little bit. We kind of have hinted a little bit about the, uh, whether or not social media is like a, uh, positive force, or it can be, you know what I mean? But we’ve hinted at whether or not it’s good for your mental. Maybe at least I have, uh, and I think that I guess this is another thing I maybe feel somewhat passionately about lately, is trying to- speaking of freedom, trying to figure out what I can actually affect.

Because if I’m spending my time and energy on things that I can’t affect, but I feel prone to having my behavior flow in the direction of that thing that I can’t affect, I’m not free, and that takes something from me, you know what I mean? There’s a prayer for that. Is there? Yeah, it’s called the Serenity Prayer. The Serenity Prayer.

Yeah, the grace. I know what you’re talking about. You want to share it? Um, yeah, it’s, uh, God grant me the, the, the- oh man, it’s like the things that I cannot- wait, hold on, I got it here. To accept the things I cannot change, courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.

You have it written down on your coin here. Yeah, well, that’s a little bit of a giveaway, but yeah, you were talking about anonymity, about things, um, and people tainting a thing, you know. But yeah, that, that is really powerful. It’s freeing because, look, I can do- I can do things I cannot control people. That’s, that’s also- it goes to my major belief in the silver rule.

I feel like that’s an embodiment of it. Look, I know the difference between these two. I can change this, I cannot change that. I’m gonna, I’m gonna not do what I don’t want other people to do to me, and that’s okay. Like, let’s not do harm, because then you’re not doing harm to others.

Like, at the end of the day, what are we looking for, you know? But, you know, when you’re talking about social media too, like That is a super powerful, positive tool. I really feel like I try to use it well, but it is- there are inherent- and I never use this word, but there are inherent evils to it. There are tendrils of that code and the algorithms or whatever to point you in particular directions intentionally for profit, for greed. And unfortunately, our human desires and what we’re drawn to, whether it be death or sex or argument or competition.

That’s what gets clicks, and that’s what gets money and eyes and keeps people engaged, and that’s what’s going to be propelled on there. It’s like a really tightrope you got to walk. That’s why the posting and ghosting is pretty helpful, but it’s hard to ghost after you post. It is hard to ghost, but I’ll tell you what, speaking of that, you know, predicament I was talking about earlier where You could spend a certain amount of your time at the end of the project making everything a little bit better, or you could zoom out and spend your energy the same amount of time doing things that could create significantly more impact. It’s almost like the same thing on social media.

It’s like a lot of times we’ll get, you know, easily bent out of shape about a thing that we don’t actually have any influence over. And that same amount of time that we spent not having any influence over that thing, but still acting on it could have been spent over a thing that we do have a lot of influence on, like getting healthier or developing deeper connections with your family or your friends. Yeah, 100%. And it’s crazy because again, that’s like not doing something in a way, not participating in that thing. You know, you see something, you’re like, oh man, I want to say something so bad.

It’s like not doing that is sometimes harder. Meditation. I learned, you know, a long time ago that like meditation sometimes is just- it’s about letting the thoughts flow through you and past you, that you don’t get hung up on something, that you’re observing the thought and letting it go. You know, watching the traffic go by rather than getting stuck in the traffic. Again, visual metaphors are helpful for me, but like, I, you know, for me, that’s powerful.

And it’s still hard, like getting hung up on something where you go, that is wrong, or that’s not quite right. And what you said hurts me in some way because I’m not that. And you think that, for instance, a recent post, someone said like, this is what it is to be a man. And I was like, that absolutely is not. That’s not what it takes to be a man for your lens.

All right. But I’m a man and I’m not half of those things, and I choose to actively not be a part of those things. And isn’t that interesting? Because we’re both men, uh, from what I know. And I had to really- that, that hung me up for hours, to be honest, because I was like, should I say something?

And I was like, no. Like, it’s just, is this worth my time? Like, no, I’m just gonna maybe talk about it sometime or reflect on it or use it. And here I am reflecting on it in some way in a much healthier context. Well, but if you think about it though, you spent a couple hours.

Oh yeah, way too long. Yeah, I was doing other stuff, but it was lingering, you know, that’s those lingering thoughts. Yeah, I ruminate in that way too. I don’t, it’s like, uh, it’s definitely a challenge. Yeah.

I wonder if there’s any truth to what that guy said. About this is what it means to be a man. I wonder if it’s similar to music where, uh, there’s truth in what he says, but there’s not a whole truth in what he says. Maybe those things- maybe it’s a genre of man. Maybe being a man is, is music entirely, and there are genres.

I, I couldn’t agree with you more. And that’s, that’s what helped me let it go, is I go, this is him, and that’s what he feels he needs to do to be a man. There was some stuff in there that could cause harm to others. And that’s the thing, or animals. And, uh, that’s what I got hung up on because I’m like, well, if you act on that thing that you’re saying, that, that doing that thing makes you a man, that could harm somebody, could harm an innocent person who’s not doing anything wrong.

But you’re taking it on yourself. Again, the Golden Rule versus the Silver Rule. There’s something there that it could be acted on rather than an inaction. And when you’re talking about a gun in context to how this person phrased it, like, that’s dangerous and could be harmful. And that’s, for me, it’s like, do I have a responsibility to speak up?

It’s like, ah, what, like, yeah, no, I’m so busy. Like, I just- do I have time for that, or should I? Yeah. But hey, you like Rush, don’t you, being a drummer? Oh yeah, yeah.

And they, they got the new drummer there. But yeah, oh my goodness, they have a song for- she’s, by the way, great. Oh yeah, I’ve been following her for 10 years. She’s insane. I never knew about her.

Uh, she was- well, she’s a vinyl, a vinyl artist, uh-huh, however you say it. And I got a whole stack over here of vinyl gear. I’m just like I like those people, and so I’ve been following a lot of their artists for a while. But anyway, Rush has this song Free Will, right? And in the song they have a lyric that says, if you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.

And I think that, uh, you know, as you keep talking about the Silver Rule in contrast with the Golden Rule, I almost look at those things as though they’re the same thing. Um, it’s like, it’s like a three-dimensional object has, uh, like I’m looking at like a coin, like the Golden Rule might be face A and the Silver Rule might be face B, but they can’t exist without each other. And I’m reminded of that lyric whenever I happen to think about those two rules juxtaposed.

Choosing- if you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice. It’s like action or inaction are both behaviors. Yep. And so if you want to do unto others as they would- as you would have them do unto you, sometimes that means not doing things unto others. You know what I mean?

Like, I don’t think that, uh, It almost might be like a semantic trap to take some of the richness out of the Golden Rule, to presume that it’s only about actions that you take instead of actions that you don’t take or choose not to take. Right. Yeah. And I, you know, I say it in that way to illustrate a point because of course there’s nuance to that, but just to illustrate that there’s- to illustrate that inaction, because because, you know, you could turn the Golden Rule around that, you know, well, my will is to not do that unto others, and therefore I don’t want them to do it unto me. And so that is the way of phrasing it within that phraseology.

But it’s even to yourself, like this, what’s going on here? And, you know, doing unto yourself, like an inaction of, for instance, in recovery, and not taking a drink. That inaction is an absolute action. It is an incredible feat for many people to not do something, and it takes every ounce of willpower to not do something. How incredible is that?

I mean, it’s ab- it’s fascinating. Like the tug that humans get in all these directions to post something or to engage in something or to do something to someone else. Because I’m- it’s boiling in me in whatever way that recipe is brewing. It’s so powerful. But I feel like, you know, humanity evolves continually.

But like, now that we’ve connected with so many different ways of thought and different, different methods of living, you know, that like this, this meditation and side of things, by side of spirituality that most people can get behind- atheists, religious people, and everything in between- like, all right, meditation, yoga, breathwork, this this realm, whatever that is, is powerful in a way. And like, you know, striving for peace within, um, in the- using those methods are directly related to the emanation of the peace or lack thereof that you project into the world that affects the world and everybody around you. And I feel like for so long of humanity that it’s always been, it’s been consistent, a hunt. It’s been outside of us that we’re interacting, that we’re doing, that we have to do and get and take. And really, it actually starts within, within us, foundationally, at every moment of every day.

And then that’s what transpires in the world, to take or not take, to act or not act. And that’s really powerful. And I don’t know if it’s being exposed more, or maybe that, you know, in different- in its different fashions. But I feel like that trend could be, could be quite powerful, because like, like, what’s cool about it is that regardless of your belief structure, there are things that can work within any realm- politics or religion or lack thereof- that people can, can grasp. Like this Just Breathe shirt.

Are you going to argue that breathing better or more consciously is a bad thing? I suppose you could, but I’d love to hear the argument. Send your email to josh@namencreative.com after this episode. We’ll talk about it. I don’t know, you know, I’ve, I, I’ve really- I mean, this is, um, so this is the longest episode we’ve ever had.

We haven’t even gotten to rapid fire. Oh, sorry or congratulations? No, it’s both. It’s not a sorry. Um, I actually called it in my head.

I should have, I should have Babe Ruthed it. Um, but like, I knew this was going to be the longest episode so far. Um, I just had it. I had that feeling. Yeah, because I’m that smart and I’m never wrong.

Yeah, well, you’re never entirely wrong. Yeah, there it is. Oh man, do you want to do rapid fire? I mean, I feel like, um, what’ll be cool is, um, this is definitely not our last conversation, uh, regardless if it’s recorded or not, which has been fantastic. But, uh, you want to experience rapid fire?

Because if I don’t do it, then kind of throws off the 47 episodes that are before you and Yeah, yeah, let’s do it. We’re already this deep and we could really try to make it rapid. All right, yeah, okay. So, uh, here we are, the rapid fire. All right, welcome.

The goal is here to answer these questions as fast as you can, but if you need to expand, it’s all good. And I ask these same questions to all my guests, okay? And it’s, it’s fascinating for me. This is all about me. So number 1, what is your biggest source of inspiration?

I guess I would say my biggest source of inspiration is probably music. Love it. Yeah, I feel that quite strongly. It’s powerful. I love how music has been a thread through our- most of our conversation today.

It’s been great. All right, so, um, this is a two-part question, and I phrase it this way because it’s boring to say another way that I used to. So you’re, you’re on an island, you have plopped down on an island, and you are just remote. It’s you, and a book falls from the sky, and it can only be one book that you’re stuck on that island with. What’s that book?

The Bible, 100%. I walked into that one, but It’s the only book I’ve been reading for the past 2 years. Really? Literally? Yeah, literally.

Wow. My mindset was like, uh, I already, I already know enough things to be able to act for a long time without needing to, to learn more, like business stuff or whatever. Not to say that I know everything. I’m just saying I know enough to where I can act before I run into a wall for a considerable amount of time. Yeah, and like if I, if I need to acutely like overcome some obstacle I have, I’ll look something up, you know what I mean?

Like I’m familiar with books that come out and, and I’ll read summaries of them, but as far as like sitting down with an actual physical book, it’s just only a Bible for about, I would say, at least a year and a half. Sure. Yeah, no, I, I get that. Uh, Art, have you read through it? Are you finished with it?

And then are you ready to read it through? I read through the whole New Testament and maybe 25% of the Old Testament. Okay. Did you go New Testament then back to Old Testament then? Yeah, actually, uh, reverse order.

If I can hit you with a, uh, a weirdo thing real quick. Yeah. I had purchased a Bible, a pretty metal-looking Bible. It was black. It had a debossed cross, like Celtic cross on it or whatever.

I thought it was pretty metal. And I had had it for a little while without acting on reading it. It was just sitting over here on my desk for like a month, you know what I mean? Because I’m still very, uh, I felt weird about it, you know what I mean? Because I spent all this time being borderline anti-theistic, you know what I mean?

And, uh, anyway, I had already been praying at this time. It’s kind of what I was referring to earlier when I was like describing being functionally Jewish. Like, I believed in God from that, like, as the lighthouse conceptually, but I didn’t really believe in, uh, what you probably call Christianity. I didn’t believe in that. And, uh, anyway, I felt kind of compelled to read the book, and so I brought it into the house that night.

I’m like, I’m just going to read I’ll read it tonight for a little while. And while I was outside, uh, whenever I go into the office or go into the house from my office, which is the upstairs in my garage, uh, I kind of hang out outside for a little bit and look at nature, you know, the moon or whatever. And, uh, anyway Uh, this is before I had my kid, my first kid, a year and a half ago. So I, I had time to be out in the garage until 9 PM or something, you know? Yeah.

And so I’m out there and I decide I’m going to pray about what book to read. Because I don’t know what book I should read. It should probably be a gospel, whatever that means. I think it means one of these four books and Uh, I prayed about it and I thought, you know, I probably ought to read Luke because I had a friend Luke who died, uh, like a week after his birthday. He’s 31.

And, uh, Luke Spencer Pierce, shout out, he’s a good dude. And, uh, anyway, I was drawn to that book because of his name. And I just thought, oh, that’d be kind of interesting because I’m kind of a sentimental guy. And, uh, anyway, I get in the house, I open the book up. I don’t know anything about the book.

I don’t know what- I know Genesis is the first book, and I know the last book is Revelation. That’s all I know at this point. I don’t know where the divider is. I know it’s Old Testament, New Testament. I just randomly flip open the book to- out of 1,158 8 pages to page 1 of Luke.

Literally, bam, Luke. No way. And I’m telling you, dude, and I’m not- look, you know, we both know what it’s like to be materially minded, you know what I’m saying? I’m not historically particularly a big subscriber to, uh, phenomenon, you know, right? Yeah.

And I’m telling you, man, when that happened, I felt chills. And like, uh, it just felt very relevant and real. And I read, I read that whole thing and really got a lot out of it. And, uh, hadn’t- I really haven’t looked back since then, honestly. It was like probably the primary conversion force for me into, at the very least, believing that that was one of, if not the philosophy with the most merit that I could possibly spend my time engaging with.

And since then it’s just compounded into a more, more literal thing. That was a very rapid, but that is the story. I love that story. Oh yeah, no, that’s wild. And just to let you know, rapid fire, there’s always a section is not so rapid.

And I am fully aware of that. It’s just you lose points, man, and that’s unfortunate. But, uh, we got a good story out of it, so we’re going to keep going. All right. Oh, I love that.

That’s so meaningful, man. Um, you’re on that island still, and now an album drops from the sky. Just one record that you can spin on repeat. What is it? Uh, Pearl Jam’s 10.

Oh, have you seen them live? No, I actually only like that album either way. I don’t like any of their newer stuff, so I probably- I don’t know if I would like seeing them live or not. Ah, they’re great live. Um, it was incredible and just packed, packed.

Um, but that’s- you, you answered that way better than I thought you were going to. Like, as far as like, I thought you were gonna get really hung up on it because- oh yeah, it’s such a tough question. Well, grunge is- grunge is like the perfect overlap of all the things that I like. It has intensity, it has emotionality, it has structure, it has a disregard of structure. Yeah.

Uh, and, and then Ten, I think, is the best grunge album ever. I don’t even think they’re the third best grunge band ever, but I think it’s the best grunge album that ever has existed. I just- I love it. Uh-huh. Have you, uh, listened to Eddie Vedder’s soundtrack, the Into the Wild soundtrack?

No, I have not. Oh man, um, Eddie Vedder did the soundtrack for that film, and, uh, I really got like the other side of him on that one. Um, it’s so good, dude. Um, yeah, yeah, Into the Wild soundtrack. Uh, shout out to Eddie Vedder, I’m sure he’s listening.

Yeah. All right, last one. You’re doing great, um, and I like this one a lot. I’m excited to hear what you have to say about it. How do you define success?

Uh, man, I think success is having a relationship with God and transcending death. Transcending death, that’s a cool way to phrase it.

Yeah, I feel like I used to think it was a bunch of other things, you know what I mean? And I get, I get hung up, and it is a lot of other things too. It’s not, but I think that’s probably the primary thing, you know, like I think about that question through the lens of like children. Yeah. And I don’t know what the world’s gonna look like for them in terms of like what careers are gonna be available or whatever, you know what I mean?

But I do think that, uh, and this is probably rich coming from me, but I do think that I owe it to them to be able to let them see it how I’ve been gifted to see it by exposing them to it in a sustainable way. You know, like to go back to your experience where you felt like whenever you got out of that environment and you saw all these other things and it was like a shocking to you that there were so many things that you weren’t exposed to. I, I want there to be exposure. Yeah. To all of those things.

And I, and I think that, uh, you know, I talked to my wife Lauren about this. I think that there are, there’s like a spectrum of immature to mature faith. And I think a lot of people have And I mean, I might be one of them. I’m not trying to act like I have it all figured out or anything, but I think that it’s pretty common from my conversations with people that they believe some, some kind of thing about God pretty wholeheartedly, and then something happens and it, like, it changes their mind on it. Like maybe somebody dies young or somebody gets sick and they’re around for a little bit too long and they suffer for a little bit too long, whatever that means.

And these things are all obviously very brutal things, or you just see what’s happening in the world sometimes and you think, you know, why, why is this thing happening? And some of these things are- will shock the faith out of somebody. And I think that what I hope to be able to do as a father is not necessarily like brainwash my kid into believing a thing without reason, but to arm them with the reason. To build, to, to believe the thing, and maybe even just slightly less importantly, uh, what earthly things to not believe in to save them from as much friction or suffering as you could save them from. Uh, and you know, hey, look, my kid’s almost 2, so maybe, maybe by the time they’re 13 and a bunch of stuff is happening and all, you know, like I’m I’m so busy with gymnastics and soccer or whatever else, I’ll just be like, ah, if they can read, you know, I did a good job.

But yeah, but right, but right now I’m still very optimistic that I want them to be able to, uh, see the world in a way that gives them agency and, and frees them from as many of those, uh, snares that we talked about. Like the, I think you said tendrils. And what’d you say, tentacles? I’m probably saying that word wrong. Who knows, right?

Well, you know, that thing, whatever that thing is, I want, I want them to be wielded with the, uh, with a good inventory of, of mental weaponry to fight those things off. Yeah. And, and to have logical ground to stand on while you do it. That’s a lot. That’s, uh, I love the way you phrase that, uh, because yeah, That’s what I want as well.

I share that deeply because everything else is on top of that, but those are roots, you know, is how to navigate regardless of what direction they go. Soccer, hockey, science, biology, aviation, you know, it doesn’t matter what direction you choose. Those are- you use the word weaponry. That’s great. You know, it’s like, these are, these are, it’s an arsenal.

Of tools to navigate whatever situation we find ourselves in, like with AI or whatever, like who knows. But if you have these foundations, well, you can navigate life as best as possible, um, being, you know, using reason, logic, you know, being kind-hearted, these fundamentals. Then, then you can be hung up on soccer practice because those foundations are ingrained. Like you’re doing now. And these are fundamental years before that anyways.

Super important. Yeah, I, I’d like to congratulate you because you won Rapid Fire. Nice. Yeah, yeah, you’ll, uh, get your medal in the, in the mail. Nice.

What kind of medal is it? Is it black metal? Yeah, it is. It’s death metal. It’s a metal made of death.

Nice. I appreciate your time, man. This has been, this has been wonderful catching up in this context. You know how neat, and I’m glad you were open for it. All I said is like, uh, to that post is, oh man, we, we need to catch up.

Yeah. Well, hey, thanks for recording it. Thanks for being kind to me. Oh yeah, of course. That’s what it’s all about.

Yeah. Well, uh, I really appreciate being invited to this. The first time I’ve ever done anything like this. And- oh really? Yeah, had a good time.

Yeah, well, um, I’m glad to hear that. I think it’s important. Like, this is- for me, this is- these kind of conversations are some of the most important things that we can do. Like, I’m, I’m here in my office and yeah, we got to get back to work, but this is, this is true work. Um, and, and so it scratches so many itches and Appreciate you scratching away with me.

Thank you, brother. Take care, brother.